_Answ._ There is no reason of scruple to him that understandeth, 1. That the title causes ecclesiastical is taken from the ancient usurpation of the pope and his prelates, who brought much of the magistrate's work into their courts, under the name of causes ecclesiastical. 2. That our canons, and many declarations of our princes, have expounded it fully, by disclaiming all proper pastoral power. 3. That by governor is meant only one that governeth coercively, or by sword; so that it is no more than to swear That in all causes ecclesiastical, so far as coercive government is required, it belongeth not to pope or prelates under him; but to the king and his officers or courts alone: or, That the king is chief in governing by the sword in causes ecclesiastical as well as civil. So that if you put spiritual instead of ecclesiastical, the word is taken materially, and not formally; not that the king is chief in the spiritual government, by the keys of excommunication and absolution, but that he is chief in the coercive government about spiritual matters, as before explained.[68] _Quest._ III. Is not this to confound the church and state, and to give the pastor's power to the magistrate? _Answ._ Not at all; it is but to say that there may be need of the use both of the word and sword against the same persons, for the same offence; and the magistrate only must use one, and the pastors the other. An heretical preacher may be silenced by the king upon pain of banishment, and silenced by the church upon pain of excommunication. And what confusion is there in this? _Quest._ IV. But hath not the king power in cases of church discipline, and excommunication itself? _Answ._ There is a magistrate's discipline, and a pastoral discipline. Discipline by the sword, is the magistrate's work; discipline by the word is the pastor's work. And there is a coercive excommunication, and a pastoral excommunication. To command upon pain of corporal punishment, that a heretic or impenitent, wicked man shall forbear the sacred ordinances and privileges, a magistrate may do; but to command it only upon divine and spiritual penalties, belongeth to the pastors of the church. The magistrate hath power over their very pastoral work, though he have not power in it, so as to do it himself. Suppose but all the physicians of the nation to be of divine institution, with their colleges and hospitals, and in the similitude you will see all the difficulties resolved, and the next question fully answered.[69] _Quest._ V. Seeing the king, and the pastors of the church, may command and judge to several ends in the same cause, suppose they should differ, which of them should the church obey?