_Commissary Ireton._ Give me leave to tell you, that if you make this the rule I think you must fly for refuge to an absolute natural Right, and you must deny all Civil Right.... For my part I think it is no right at all. I think that no person hath a right to an interest or share in the disposing or determining of the affairs of the Kingdom, and in choosing those that shall determine what laws we shall be ruled by here, no person hath a right to this that hath not a permanent fixed interest in this Kingdom.... We talk of birthright. Truly by birthright there is thus much claim. Men may justly have by birthright, by their very being born in England, that we shall not seclude them out of England, that we shall not refuse to give them air and place and ground and the freedom of the highways and other things, to live amongst us.... That I think is due to a man by birth. But that by a man's being born here he shall have a share in that power that shall dispose of the lands here, and of all things here, I do not think it a sufficient ground. I am sure if we look upon ... that which is most radical and fundamental and which if you take away there is no man hath any land, any goods, any civil interest, that is this; that those that choose the representors for the making of laws by which this state and kingdom are to be governed, are the persons who taken together do comprehend the local interest of this kingdom: that is, the persons in whom all land lies, and those in Corporations in whom all trading lies.... _Rainborough._ Truly, Sir, I am of the same opinion I was; and am resolved to keep it till I know reason why I should not. I do think the main cause why Almighty God gave men reason, it was, that they should make use of that reason. Half a loaf is better than none if a man be an hungry, yet I think there is nothing that God hath given a man that any else can take from him. I do not find anything in the law of God, that a Lord shall choose 20 burgesses and a gentleman but two, and a poor man shall choose none. But I do find that all Englishmen must be subject to English laws, and I do verily believe that there is no man but will say that the foundation of all law lies in the people.... _Ireton._ I wish we may all consider of what right you will challenge, that all people should have right to elections. Is it by the right of nature? By that same right of nature by which you can say one man hath an equal right with another to the choosing of him that shall govern him--by the same right of nature, he hath an equal right in any goods he sees; meat, drink, clothes, to take and use them for his sustenance. He hath a freedom to the land, to exercise it, till it; he hath the same freedom to anything that anyone doth account himself to have any property in.... Since you cannot plead it by anything but the law of nature, I would fain have any man show me their bounds, where you will end, and why you should not take away all property?