Mr. Grammer, general traffic manager of the Lake Shore, testified in 1902 in respect to “provisions,” cut meats, lard, etc., from Chicago to New York: “The minimum weight on a car of provisions is 28,000 lbs. The rate is 25 cents. That is about the maximum rate obtained this last year, 1901, and that means $70 a car. We pay out of that to the stockyards $2.40 a car for switching, we pay $15 car-mileage for a round trip of the car, and at New York we pay 3 cents a hundred lighterage; that is, $2.40 and $15, $17.40, and $8.40—$25.80 which we pay out of that rate as absolute arbitraries. That leaves the Lake Shore $16 or $17 net for hauling that car to Buffalo, with the return car empty, and we have to give practically passenger service to that traffic. I think it is unremunerative business, and I have always taken the position that we do not want any provisions on the Lake Shore road at less than the full tariff rate, whatever that might be. The dressed-beef minimum will average 22,000 lbs. That car is subject to the same arbitraries and mileage. The lighterage is 3 cents a hundred, which would be $6.60 instead of $8.40, and it is subject to the same service eastbound and westbound as to movement; and there is not 1 percent of those cars loaded east with dressed beef that are loaded with any freight coming west.” In spite of the unremunerative character of the business Manager Grammer says they cut the rate 5 cents a hundred.[111] Mr. Paul Morton, at the head of the traffic department of the Santa Fe, testified in 1902[112] that his road carried dressed meats and packing-house products below the published rates in violation of law. “MR. MORTON. We have carried the business from Kansas City to Chicago for 5 cents less than the published tariff to Chicago and Chicago junction points. “MR. DAY. Domestic as well as export? “MR. MORTON. Both.” “The Santa Fe,” he said, “at the beginning of 1901 joined with the other roads in a general declaration of good faith and intention of an absolute maintenance of rates. We maintained the rate until about April 1.” The Santa Fe found that they were only carrying 2 percent of the packing-house business out of Kansas City, although they brought in 33⅓ percent of all the live-stock that entered the city. So “we told one of the largest shippers in Kansas City that if they would come and ship with us we would give them 5 cents reduction from the tariff, and in order to get them we had to promise to do it for a year—I think until the first of July of this year, 1902.” Continuing, the witness admitted the illegality of the transaction. “MR. MORTON. Yes, sir; it is an illegal contract. It was illegal when we made it, and we knew that. “COMMISSIONER CLEMENTS. Can you tell how much you paid out in a year? “MORTON. On this business? “CLEMENTS. Yes, sir. Have you any idea whether it is $50,000 or $100,000 or $10,000—anything definite? Of course it is a mere guess and you do not know—