Barnum often tried to convert those of other beliefs, and especially clergymen, which would seem to indicate that the anxiety which his mind suffered at the thought that he might not be saved was greater than he would have cared to admit. He met on the street his old friend, the Rev. C. A. Stoddard, editor of _The New York Observer_, a religious publication. “Is it possible,” Barnum asked, “that the _Observer_ still sticks to the old doctrine of endless suffering?” “The _Observer_ doesn’t budge an inch from its lifelong creed and doctrines,” answered the Rev. Mr. Stoddard proudly. “Surely you must lose numerous subscribers who at this day of the ‘new orthodoxy’ cannot believe that there are childless mothers in the Paradise of God?” said Barnum. “The places of such subscribers,” the clergyman replied, “are readily filled by those, who, like myself, loath the thought of spending an eternity in the company of Judas.” “But cannot Infinite Power, Wisdom, and Goodness conquer, purify, and win even the betrayer of our Saviour, who on the cross prayed for the forgiveness of his murderers?” asked Barnum. The religious editor replied, with a good-natured, patronizing smile, “Judas would require considerable fixing up before he would be fit to come in close contact with the holy angels and saints in heaven.” “True,” said Barnum, “but will not you and I need some ‘fixing up’ for that state of perfect holiness without which no man can see God?” The Rev. Mr. Stoddard admitted that both of them would need such fixing up, “but evidently,” Barnum reflected sadly, “he cannot as yet see a chance for Judas.” Judas worried Barnum: it may be that deep in his consciousness, so deep that he himself felt its distressing murmurs but vaguely, he realized that the temptation of thirty pieces of silver would have been difficult for a practical American man of business to resist. Many of the _Observer’s_ subscribers probably thought it natural that Barnum should take such an interest in Judas, but many more forgave him because his profits were considerably greater than thirty pieces of silver, and in justice to him it must be admitted that his crimes were not of a tremendously serious nature. But there were days of depression and remorse, when Barnum, goaded by his sincere piety, feared that he would roast in hell for the Buffalo Hunt, General Tom Thumb’s age, the model of Niagara Falls, The Fejee Mermaid, and The Woolly Horse, and maybe for sins which he kept carefully to himself, and then he could clutch at the comfort of Universalism, which offered him the hope of condonation for mankind, and the assurance that he could share in the general pardon. III