142. Afterwards I saw other spirits from the same earth, who appeared in a place beneath the former: with these also I conversed; but they were idolaters, for they worshipped an idol of stone, like a man, but an unhandsome one. It is to be observed, that all who come into the other life, in the beginning have a worship which is like their worship in the world, but that by degrees they are removed from it. The reason why this takes place is, that all worship remains implanted in man's interior life, from which it cannot be removed and eradicated except by degrees. On seeing this, it was given me to tell them that they ought not to worship what is dead, but what is living; to which they replied, that they knew that God lives, and that a stone does not, but that they thought of the living God while looking on a stone resembling a man, and that otherwise the ideas of their thought could not be fixed upon and determined to the invisible God. It was then given me to tell them that the ideas of thought can be fixed upon and determined to the invisible God, when they are fixed upon and determined to the Lord, who is God visible in thought under the Human Form; and thus that man can be conjoined with the invisible God in thought and affection, consequently in faith and love, when he is conjoined with the Lord, but not otherwise. 143. The spirits who were seen on high were questioned whether on their earth they live under the rule of princes or kings. To this they replied, that they do not know what governments are, and that they live under themselves, distinguished into clans, families, and households. They were questioned whether they were thus in security. They said they were secure, since one family never envies another, nor desires to deprive another of anything. They were indignant at being asked such questions, as if they had been charged with being at enmity, or with needing protection against robbers. What, said they, does anyone need but food and raiment, and thus to live content and quiet under one's own management? 144. Being further questioned concerning their earth, they said that they have meadows, flower-gardens, orchards full of fruit-trees, and also lakes containing fish; and that they have birds of a blue colour, with golden feathers; and large and small animals. Amongst the smaller, they mentioned one sort which had the back raised like the camels on our Earth; nevertheless, they do not feed on their flesh, but only on the flesh of fishes, and besides on the fruits of trees, and on the leguminous plants of the earth. They said, moreover, that they do not live in artificial houses, but in groves, amongst the leafy boughs of which they make roofs to shelter them from rain and the heat of the sun.