+Archbishop.+ And the Archbishop said to me, "Lewd losell! thou seest not far enough in this matter! for thou considerest not the great travail of pilgrims; therefore thou blamest that thing that is praisable! I say to thee, that it is right well done; that pilgrims have with them both singers and also pipers: that when one of them that goeth barefoot striketh his toe upon a stone and hurteth him sore and maketh him to bleed; it is well done, that he or his fellow, begin then a song or else take out of his bosom a bagpipe for to drive away with such mirth, the hurt of his fellow. For with such solace, the travail and weariness of pilgrims is lightly and merrily brought forth." +William.+ And I said, "Sir, Saint PAUL teacheth men, _to weep with them that weep_." +Archbishop.+ And the Archbishop said, "What janglest thou against men's devotion? Whatsoever thou or such other say, I say, that the pilgrimage that now is used, is to them that do it, a praisable and a good mean[s] to come the rather to grace. But I hold thee unable to know this grace! for thou enforcest thee to let [_hinder_] the devotion of the people, since by authority of Holy Scripture, men may lawfully have and use such solace as thou reprovest! For DAVID in his last _Psalm_, teacheth me to have divers instruments of music for to praise therewith GOD." +William.+ And I said, "Sir, by the sentence [_opinions_] of divers Doctors expounding the _Psalms_ of DAVID, the music and minstrelsy that DAVID and other Saints of the Old Law spake of, owe [_ought_], now, neither to be taken nor used by the letter; but these instruments with their music ought to be interpreted ghostly [_spiritually_]: for all those figures are called Virtues and Grace, with which virtues men should please GOD and praise His name. For Saint PAUL saith, _All such things befell to them in figure._ Therefore, Sir, I understand that the letter of this _Psalm_ of DAVID and of such other _Psalms_ and sentences, doth slay them that taken them now literally. This sentence, I understand, Sir, CHRIST approveth himself, putting out the minstrels, ere that he would quicken the dead damsel." +Archbishop.+ And the Archbishop said to me, "Lewd losell! is it not lawful for us to have organs in the church, for to worship therewithal GOD?" +William.+ And I said, "Yea, Sir, by man's ordinance; but, by the ordinance of GOD, a good sermon to the people's understanding, were mickle more pleasant to GOD!" +Archbishop.+ And the Archbishop said that "organs and good delectable songs quickened and sharpened more men's wits, than should any sermon!"