The meeting was held in the chapter-house, and the king and the most influential men of his suite were present. Secretaries took their seats at a table for the purpose of taking down the discussion in writing. The champions of Rome and of the Gospel came forward, and the colloquy began. The first question contained within itself all the others. It was, whether _the traditions established by the Fathers and the ancient doctors of the Church must be abolished_. Galle admitted that the Christian religion was certainly contained, as Olaf asserted, in the Holy Scriptures. ‘But,’ he said, ‘these Scriptures are difficult to understand, and we must therefore receive the explanation given of them by the ancient Fathers.’ ‘Let us admit the interpretation of the Fathers,’ replied Olaf, ‘when it does not disagree with the written Word; but when the teachings of the Fathers are at variance with those of Scripture, let us reject them.[431] If we do not reject them, we should make no difference between the word of God and the decrees of men.’ The discussion turned afterwards upon the great doctrine of the Reformation, _Is a man saved by his own merits or by the grace of God alone_?[432] Olaf maintained that eternal life is ‘the _gift of God_’ (Rom. vi. 23), and that Christians are saved _by grace_ (Ephes. ii. 8). Man obtains a reward solely _by the grace of God and because Christ has merited it for him_. This fundamental doctrine was met with among all nations at the epoch of the Reformation. Galle expected to triumph by maintaining the ecclesiastical princedom of the bishop of Rome, which had existed, he added, for twelve hundred years. ‘The office of a bishop,’ answered Olaf, ‘is not a lordship but a labor. The papacy has not existed for so long a time as you assign to it. Moreover, we have to consider, not the antiquity of an office but its goodness. Satan the tempter of man is very _ancient_, but it does not follow from this that he is _good_.’ The discussion continued on other matters in controversy, such as conversion, the Lord’s Supper, and particularly miraculous apparitions which Galle asserted still took place. He instanced those seen by St. Martin, St. Anthony, and Cyrillus, bishop of Jerusalem. ‘Every day new ones are witnessed,’[433] he added, ‘and so far from despising them, we ought to feel great reverence for them.’ ‘The Church of God,’ replied Olaf, ‘built up on the doctrine of prophets and apostles, has no need of apparitions. The Word of God is sufficient to impart the knowledge of salvation. But man who is a liar delights himself in these fallacious novelties because he has no relish for the Word of God.[434] Holy Scripture forbids us to seek after the truth at the hands of the dead.’ In support of his proposition he quoted Deut. xix. 9; Lev. xx. 6; Isa. viii. 19; and Luke xvi. 27.