At any rate, didn’t you know that and weren’t you aware of the fact that he was ousted from the university as a professor because of his Communist Party membership? Mr. O’CONNELL. If I remember correctly, and it is a long time ago, Gundlach was actually ousted, if I remember correctly, because President Allen, who was at the university at the time, didn’t think he was a Communist but thought that his conduct in connection with the investigation that was carried on by the State un-American activities committee, was such that he didn’t think he was a fit and proper person to be a teacher at the university. That is my recollection of it. The reason I wonder about Gundlach is that he took an entirely different course, as I remember, before the State un-American activities committee out there than certain others who were there later, but if Barbara Hartle says he is and says he was, she may be right. I don’t know. All I am doing is conjecturing on the basis of---- Mr. TAVENNER. As a matter of fact, Mr. O’Connell, from your vast experience and your intelligence, didn’t you form the opinion that the Pacific Northwest Labor School was a training school for the Communist Party? Mr. O’CONNELL. No; I particularly didn’t get that idea because I know some excellent people who were connected with the school. One is Frank Carlson, who was in the streetcarmen’s union out there who was an outstanding labor leader who certainly wasn’t a Communist. I. E. Sandvigen of the machinists union was not a Communist, I am sure. Many others identified with the school particularly in the labor movement that promoted the school and I think what may have happened to it as it went along, I don’t know, but the idea of the school was a good one and I think they were trying to do a good job. Daschbach became director of the school somewhat later in its history, as I remember it. Mr. TAVENNER. Let me read into the record at this point, Mr. Chairman, the testimony of Barbara Hartle regarding the labor school. She was asked the question as to what connection there was between the school and the Communist Party. That is between the Pacific Northwest Labor School and the Communist Party. Her answer was as follows: The Pacific Northwest Labor School was a Communist front project in the field of education and its basic purpose was to spread Marxist-Leninist education, but to do it in such a way as to attract non-Communists in addition to its use for being a school for Communist Party members.