as what I said to Lord John Russell and Lord Clarendon. The position was not now so new and striking to me. I think I began without any kind of apology; for his lordship's looks gave me no feeling that any was needful or expected. I said, "that in coming to speak to his lordship on this subject, I had not so much in view to ascertain more and more that there was no danger of what I proposed causing offence to our Government, as I thought what I had heard from others was sufficient proof of this; but I wished to put as many of our public men as I could meet with in possession of all my intentions and proceedings, in order that if, at last, I succeeded, as I hoped, in moving the Catholics to be interested about them, and these matters came before the public, they might know from myself in person what I really intended, and might be enabled, if they thought well, to do me justice." This was the substance of what I said to him. Having thus concluded, I awaited his answer, which was about as follows:--"As you wish to know what I think of your doings, I must say I do not by any means agree with you in considering it a desirable result that this country should again be brought under subjection to Rome. I do not profess to take my view from the elevated and sublime ground on which you place yourself; I mean, I speak not with reference to religious interests, but to political; and as a politician, when we consider the way in which the Pope's government is opposed to the progress of liberty, and liberal institutions, I cannot say that I wish to see England again under such influence." Thus far, I do not mean to say, that what I heard was anything agreeable to me. Neither the matter nor the tone were agreeable to me. There was something sarcastic in his tone. And does that suit my purpose? it may be asked. I answer, "It does very well." Could it be expected that he would speak very agreeably and favourably {411} of the end I told him I was aiming at? If he had, that would, I conceive, have just thrown a doubt on the sincerity of what he said immediately after, in a tone simply and perfectly agreeable, on the effect likely to result immediately from what I was doing: and this was: "But as to what you are doing, as it must tend to conciliate Catholic powers towards England, what have I to say, but that it is excellent?" or some such word expressing full and cordial approbation. After this, he went on with some remarks on the establishment of the Hierarchy, which, of course, were in accordance with what he had, I think, been saying a few days previously in Parliament, complaining of it as offensive and injurious; but on this part of the conversation I need not dwell, as it had no bearing on the subject which I had proposed to him. With regard to that, my impression on leaving him was this: that he had listened with attention to what I had said, had at once perfectly