SOCRATES: You, Protarchus, have clearly never heard of certain enemies of our friend Philebus. PROTARCHUS: And who may they be? SOCRATES: Certain persons who are reputed to be masters in natural philosophy, who deny the very existence of pleasure. PROTARCHUS: Indeed! SOCRATES: They say that what the school of Philebus calls pleasures are all of them only avoidances of pain. PROTARCHUS: And would you, Socrates, have us agree with them? SOCRATES: Why, no, I would rather use them as a sort of diviners, who divine the truth, not by rules of art, but by an instinctive repugnance and extreme detestation which a noble nature has of the power of pleasure, in which they think that there is nothing sound, and her seductive influence is declared by them to be witchcraft, and not pleasure. This is the use which you may make of them. And when you have considered the various grounds of their dislike, you shall hear from me what I deem to be true pleasures. Having thus examined the nature of pleasure from both points of view, we will bring her up for judgment. PROTARCHUS: Well said. SOCRATES: Then let us enter into an alliance with these philosophers and follow in the track of their dislike. I imagine that they would say something of this sort; they would begin at the beginning, and ask whether, if we wanted to know the nature of any quality, such as hardness, we should be more likely to discover it by looking at the hardest things, rather than at the least hard? You, Protarchus, shall answer these severe gentlemen as you answer me. PROTARCHUS: By all means, and I reply to them, that you should look at the greatest instances. SOCRATES: Then if we want to see the true nature of pleasures as a class, we should not look at the most diluted pleasures, but at the most extreme and most vehement? PROTARCHUS: In that every one will agree. SOCRATES: And the obvious instances of the greatest pleasures, as we have often said, are the pleasures of the body? PROTARCHUS: Certainly. SOCRATES: And are they felt by us to be or become greater, when we are sick or when we are in health? And here we must be careful in our answer, or we shall come to grief. PROTARCHUS: How will that be? SOCRATES: Why, because we might be tempted to answer, 'When we are in health.' PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is the natural answer. SOCRATES: Well, but are not those pleasures the greatest of which mankind have the greatest desires? PROTARCHUS: True. SOCRATES: And do not people who are in a fever, or any similar illness, feel cold or thirst or other bodily affections more intensely? Am I not right in saying that they have a deeper want and greater pleasure in the satisfaction of their want? PROTARCHUS: That is obvious as soon as it is said.