The same conversation is reported as having taken place between Diogenes and Plato, except that instead of [Greek: i(ppo/tês] and [Greek: a)nthrôpo/tês], we have [Greek: trapezo/tês] and [Greek: kuatho/tês] (Diog. L. vi, 53). We have [Greek: zôo/tês--A)thênaio/tês]--in Galen's argument against the Stoics (vol. xix. p. 481, Kühn).] [Side-note: First protest of Nominalism against Realism.] This debate between Antisthenes and Plato marks an interesting point in the history of philosophy. It is the first protest of Nominalism against the doctrine of an extreme Realism. The Ideas or Forms of Plato (according to many of his phrases, for he is not always consistent with himself) are not only real existences distinct from particulars, but absorb to themselves all the reality of particulars. The real universe in the Platonic theory was composed of Ideas or Forms such as Manness or Horseness[124] (called by Plato the [Greek: Au)to\-A)/nthrôpos] and [Greek: Au)to\-I(/ppos]), of which particular men and horses were only disfigured, transitory, and ever-varying photographs. Antisthenes denied what Plato affirmed, and as Plato affirmed it. Aristotle denied it also; maintaining that genera, species, and attributes, though distinguishable as separate predicates of, or inherencies in, individuals--yet had no existence apart from individuals. Aristotle was no less wanting than Antisthenes, in the intellectual eye required for discerning the Platonic Ideas. Antisthenes is said to have declared these Ideas to be mere thoughts or conceptions ([Greek: psila\s e)nnoi/as]): _i.e._, merely subjective or within the mind, without any object corresponding to them. This is one of the various modes of presenting the theory of Ideas, resorted to even in the Platonic Parmenidês, not by one who opposes that theory, but by one seeking to defend it--_viz._, by Sokrates, when he is hard pressed by the objections of the Eleate against the more extreme and literal version of the theory.[125] It is remarkable, that the objections ascribed to Parmenides against that version which exhibits the Ideas as mere Concepts of and in the mind, are decidedly less forcible than those which he urges against the other versions. [Footnote 124: We know from Plato himself (Theætêtus, p. 182 A) that even the word [Greek: poio/tês], if not actually first introduced by himself, was at any rate so recent as to be still repulsive, and to require an Apology, If [Greek: poio/tês] was strange, [Greek: a)nthrôpo/tês] and [Greek: i(ppo/tês] would be still more strange. Antisthenes probably invented them, to present the doctrine which he impugned in a dress of greater seeming absurdity.] [Footnote 125: Plato, Parmenidês, p. 132 B. See, afterwards, chapter xxvii., Parmenides.] [Side-note: Doctrines of Antisthenes about predication--he admits no other predication but identical.]