Jack Dougherty, an employee working on the fifth floor, testified that he took the west elevator to the first floor after hearing a noise which sounded like a backfire.[C4-371] Eddie Piper, the janitor, told Dougherty that the President had been shot,[C4-372] but in his testimony Piper did not mention either seeing or talking with Dougherty during these moments of excitement.[C4-373] Both Dougherty and Piper were confused witnesses. They had no exact memory of the events of that afternoon. Truly was probably correct in stating that the west elevator was on the fifth floor when he looked up the elevator shaft from the first floor. The west elevator was not on the fifth floor when Baker and Truly reached that floor, probably because Jack Dougherty took it to the first floor while Baker and Truly were running up the stairs or in the lunchroom with Oswald. Neither elevator could have been used by Oswald as a means of descent. Oswald’s use of the stairway is consistent with the testimony of other employees in the building. Three employees--James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman, and Bonnie Ray Williams--were watching the parade from the fifth floor, directly below the window from which the shots were fired. They rushed to the west windows after the shots were fired and remained there until after they saw Patrolman Baker’s white helmet on the fifth floor moving toward the elevator.[C4-374] While they were at the west windows their view of the stairwell was completely blocked by shelves and boxes.[C4-375] This is the period during which Oswald would have descended the stairs. In all likelihood Dougherty took the elevator down from the fifth floor after Jarman, Norman, and Williams ran to the west windows and were deciding what to do. None of these three men saw Dougherty, probably because of the anxiety of the moment and because of the books which may have blocked the view.[C4-376] Neither Jarman, Norman, Williams, or Dougherty saw Oswald.[C4-377] Victoria Adams, who worked on the fourth floor of the Depository Building, claimed that within about 1 minute following the shots she ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor,[C4-378] down the rear stairs to the first floor, where she encountered two Depository employees--William Shelley and Billy Lovelady.[C4-379] If her estimate of time is correct, she reached the bottom of the stairs before Truly and Baker started up, and she must have run down the stairs ahead of Oswald and would probably have seen or heard him. Actually she noticed no one on the back stairs. If she descended from the fourth to the first floor as fast as she claimed in her testimony, she would have seen Baker or Truly on the first floor or on the stairs, unless they were already in the second-floor lunchroom talking to Oswald. When she reached the first floor, she actually saw Shelley and Lovelady slightly east of the east elevator.