"But, then," said the Blessed One, "has any teacher of the Brahmans, versed in the Vedas, seen Brahmā face to face?" 9 The two Brahmans said: "No, sir." 10 "But, then," said the Blessed One, "has any one of the authors of the Vedas seen Brahmā face to face?" 11 Again the two Brahmans answered in the negative and exclaimed: "How can any one see Brahmā or understand him, for the mortal cannot understand the immortal." And the Blessed One proposed an illustration, saying: 12 "It is as if a man should make a staircase in the place where four roads cross, to mount up into a mansion. And people should ask him, 'Where, good friend, is this mansion, to mount up into which you are making this staircase? Knowest thou whether it is in the east, or in the south, or in the west, or in the north? Whether it is high, or low, or of medium size?' And when so asked he should answer, 'I know it not.' And people should say to him, 'But, then, good friend, thou art making a staircase to mount up into something--taking it for a mansion--which all the while thou knowest not, neither hast thou seen it.' And when so asked he should answer, 'That is exactly what I do; yea I know that I cannot know it.' What would you think of him? Would you not say that the talk of that man was foolish talk?" 13 "In sooth, Gotama," said the two Brahmans, "it would be foolish talk!" 14 The Blessed One continued: "Then the Brahmans should say, 'We show you the way unto a union of what we know not and what we have not seen.' This being the substance of Brahman lore, does it not follow that their task is vain?" 15 "It does follow," replied Bhāradvāja. 16 Said the Blessed One: "Thus it is impossible that Brahmans versed in the three Vedas should be able to show the way to a state of union with that which they neither know nor have seen. Just as when a string of blind men are clinging one to the other. Neither can the foremost see, nor can those in the middle see, nor can the hindmost see. Even so, methinks, the talk of the Brahmans versed in the three Vedas is but blind talk; it is ridiculous, consists of mere words, and is a vain and empty thing." 17 "Now suppose," added the Blessed One, "that a man should come hither to the bank of the river, and, having some business on the other side, should want to cross. Do you suppose that if he were to invoke the other bank of the river to come over to him on this side, the bank would come on account of his praying?" 18 "Certainly not, Gotama." 19