Investigations by the Commission in December, 1901, and January, 1902, took the lid off of the dressed-meat business and discovered a large congregation of secret rebates. The Pennsylvania system was cutting the rate on packing-house products 5 to 7 cents below the published rate, making it 25 cents and sometimes 22 cents, in place of 30 cents, from Chicago to New York. Rates from Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and other points were also cut.[104] The examination brought out the fact that President Cassatt and other officers above the traffic manager knew what he was doing and authorized or permitted the rate cutting.[105] “COMMISSIONER CLEMENTS. Who takes the responsibility for doing these things, for making these serious departures and cuts, in regard to the Pennsylvania Railroad? Is it you? Do you do it without any authority from the officers of that road above you, or do you have their approval of it? “MR. MCCABE. I am in charge of the freight traffic, and I do the best I can under the circumstances. “COMMISSIONER CLEMENTS. Do you act independently of them, or do you have to have their approval? “MR. MCCABE. I assume to do what I think is proper, being governed by the competitive conditions. “COMMISSIONER CLEMENTS. Do you have reason to know that the officers above you in the management of that company’s affairs knew of it? “MR. MCCABE. Not in detail. “COMMISSIONER CLEMENTS. I do not mean the details. I could have answered that myself. But as to the general fact that the Pennsylvania Railroad was cutting the rate in this serious way, was it known to the president of that company and other officers? “MR. MCCABE. I do not know. “COMMISSIONER CLEMENTS. Have you ever had any conference with the officers above you in the management of that company’s affairs in which you disclosed this condition of things? “MR. MCCABE. I have said to them from time to time that rate conditions were so and so; that rates were not being maintained, and that our competitors were cutting the rates. “COMMISSIONER CLEMENTS. And that you must cut the rates? Did they sanction it, or approve it, or tell you to stop it? “MR. MCCABE. I think they left it to my discretion.” The Big Four, a Vanderbilt line, cut rates 6 cents below the 30 cent tariff from St. Louis.[106] Mr. Mitchell, traffic manager of the Michigan Central, says his road carried dressed meats at 40 cents, or 5 cents below the published rate. “CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMISSION. Did you carry any considerable amount of dressed meats during 1901 that paid the tariff rate? “MITCHELL. I think not. “CHAIRMAN. Practically all of it went at some secret rate? “MITCHELL. Yes, sir.” This man thought his road paid the four Beef Trust houses $200,000 or $240,000 a year in rebates.[107]