Some of the witnesses give the railways a clean bill of character and even put a coat of whitewash over the record of the Standard Oil from 1887 on. Mr. Hiland, head of the traffic department of the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul, says: “Unjust discriminations and rebates have ceased.”[164] Mr. Bird, Vice-President of the Gould lines, says: “I believe there are no rebates paid.” “CHAIRMAN. And discriminations? “MR. BIRD. No secret discriminations. There may be discriminations that are open and published in the tariffs.... I do not believe that the Standard Oil Company has received a rebate since 1887.... I do not believe that the beef trusts are getting rebates.”[165] Mr. Brown, counsel for the Santa Fe, said: “My sole purpose in appearing here is to put on record a sweeping denial that the A. T. and S. F. Company has made any discriminatory rates or paid any rebates.”[166] Mr. Biddle, traffic manager of the Santa Fe, was not quite so sweeping. He said: “It is true that rebates have been paid, although personally I have not known of any such payments for over twelve years.”[167] A more impressive mass of negative evidence could hardly have been secured, even if the Commission had selected the witnesses with a view to their ignorance of rebates and kindred manœuvres. It is peculiarly fortunate, just at this time, to have the statements of so many who seem to have refrained from associating with rebates or seeing any discriminations, in view of the vigorous anti-rebate remarks of President Roosevelt in his recent messages to Congress, asking for further legislation to check railroad abuses. The President is under the impression that rebates and other evils still exist, but if the Senate Committee can report to Congress that this is a mistake it will be clear that the said new legislation is not needed. Unfortunately, however, the weight of evidence is against those who affirm the conversion of the railroads to the ways of virtue. The cessation of discriminations is denied by a large number of authorities including railroad men of the highest position.[168] James J. Hill, President of the Great Northern, says discriminations still exist and must exist. He thinks discriminations will never cease, and declares that railroads “have to discriminate.”[169] Victor Morawetz, Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Santa Fe and its chief counsel, says that discrimination still exists and is “bound to exist” under present conditions. Many things the traffic managers do are not authorized by their superiors and would not be approved by them, but it is understood that concessions are given and must be given.[170]