Lord KITCHENER: You were asked to put forward proposals, but you refused, and now after the British Government has made proposals you come forward with a proposal. General DE LA REY: I think it was in consequence of the correspondence between the Netherlands and British Governments that we made our proposals. That correspondence was the commencement of the negotiations. Chief Commandant DE WET: If we had had to make new proposals in April we would not have been able to put forward a proposal so reasonable and advantageous to the British Government as we do now, because unless the people consented we would have had to insist on retaining our entire independence. Lord MILNER: I wish to remind you of what has taken place, and I do not do so to put you in the wrong, but to make the position clear, for these matters are very plain. You came and made a certain proposal. The British Government gave a clear reply--they refused to accept it. The reply was entirely straightforward and quite intelligible; and at the same time the British Government said: "We are desirous of peace; will you make other proposals?" You said: "No, we have no authority to do so without consulting the people." We admitted that argument. Then you said: "Let the British Government make proposals." The British Government did so, and they are equally entitled to an answer. What is the position you place Lord Kitchener and me in? You return with an entirely new proposal and say nothing of ours. This is not a reasonable treatment of the British Government, and we ought not to take your proposal into consideration. General HERTZOG: I have attempted to point out that our reply really cannot be taken as no reply to the proposals of the British Government, because the great question raised in the correspondence last April between us and the British Government turned on the independence, and now after having consulted the people we come and say: "We are prepared to abandon the independence, and we define to what extent." And now, as General Smuts has said, that is exactly the basis that we lay down here in our proposal. Lord MILNER: You say you abandon the independence as far as foreign relations are concerned? General HERTZOG: Yes, but you must understand that this is only a basis, which we shall more fully specify later. General SMUTS: The independence is abandoned as far as foreign relations are concerned, and with reference to the internal government, that is placed under the supervision of the British Government, so that the effect of these two clauses is: That the independence is abandoned and that the two Republics cannot after that be considered as sovereign States. Lord MILNER: I understand very well that they would not then be sovereign States, but my mind is not clear enough to be able to say what they would virtually be. Lord KITCHENER: They would be a new kind of "International Animal."