[Footnote 12: Ib. xxii. 168.] [Footnote 13: Ib. xvi. 433.] *388E* Yes, he said, that is most true. Yes, I replied; but that surely is what ought not to be, as the argument has just proved to us; and by that proof we must abide until it is disproved by a better. It ought not to be. [Sidenote: Neither are the guardians to be encouraged to laugh by the example of the gods.] Neither ought our guardians to be given to laughter. For a fit of laughter which has been indulged to excess almost always produces a violent reaction. So I believe. Then persons of worth, even if only mortal men, must not be represented as overcome by laughter, and still less must such a representation of the gods be allowed. *389A* Still less of the gods, as you say, he replied. Then we shall not suffer such an expression to be used about the gods as that of Homer when he describes how 'Inextinguishable laughter arose among the blessed gods, when they saw Hephaestus bustling about the mansion[14].' On your views, we must not admit them. {72} [Footnote 14: Ib. i. 599.] On my views, if you like to father them on me; that we *389B* must not admit them is certain. [Sidenote: Our youth must be truthful,] Again, truth should be highly valued; if, as we were saying, a lie is useless to the gods, and useful only as a medicine to men, then the use of such medicines should be restricted to physicians; private individuals have no business with them. Clearly not, he said. Then if any one at all is to have the privilege of lying, the rulers of the State should be the persons; and they, in their dealings either with enemies or with their own citizens, may be allowed to lie for the public good. But nobody else should *389C* meddle with anything of the kind; and although the rulers have this privilege, for a private man to lie to them in return is to be deemed a more heinous fault than for the patient or the pupil of a gymnasium not to speak the truth about his own bodily illnesses to the physician or to the trainer, or for a sailor not to tell the captain what is happening about the ship and the rest of the crew, and how things are going with himself or his fellow sailors. Most true, he said. *389D* If, then, the ruler catches anybody beside himself lying in the State, 'Any of the craftsmen, whether he be priest or physician or carpenter[15],' he will punish him for introducing a practice which is equally subversive and destructive of ship or State. [Footnote 15: Od. xvii. 383 sq.] Most certainly, he said, if our idea of the State is ever carried out[16]. [Footnote 16: Or, 'if his words are accompanied by actions.'] [Sidenote: and also temperate.] In the next place our youth must be temperate? Certainly. Are not the chief elements of temperance, speaking *389E* generally, obedience to commanders and self-control in sensual pleasures? True. Then we shall approve such language as that of Diomede in Homer,