_One day the Layman addressed Ma-tsu, saying: "A man of unobscured original nature asks you please to look upward." Ma-tsu looked straight down. The Layman said: "You alone play marvelously on the stringless ch'in [lute]." Ma-tsu looked straight up. The Layman bowed low. Ma-tsu returned to his quarters. "Just now bungled it trying to be smart," then said the Layman.8 _ The modern master Charles Luk speculates that P'ang's request to Ma-tsu to look up at an enlightened man was intended to trap the old master: "In reply Ma-tsu looked down to reveal the functioning of the enlightened mind. P'ang then praised the master for playing so well on the stringless lute. Thereat Ma-tsu looked up to return functioning to the enlightened mind. . . . In Ch'an parlance, looking down is 'function,' which means the mind wandering outside to deliver living beings, and looking up is returning function to 'substance' (the mind) after the work of salvation has been done. P'ang's act of prostrating is 'function' and Ma-tsu's return to the abbot's room means returning function to 'substance' to end the dialogue, for nothing further can be added to reveal substance and function."9 Although the Layman declined monastic orders, he apparently could hold his own with the best of Ma-tsu's followers, as well as with other Ch'an monks he encountered in his travels. Often monks sought him out merely to match wits. A typical exchange is reported with a follower of Shih-t'ou named P'u-chi, who once came to test P'ang: _One day P'u-chi visited the Layman. "I recall that when I was in my mother's womb I had a certain word," said the Layman. "I'll show it to you, but you mustn't hold it as a principle." "You're still separated from life," said P'u-chi. "I just said you mustn't hold it as a principle," rejoined the Layman. "How can I not be awed by a word that astounds people?" said P'u-chi. "Understanding such as yours is enough to astonish people," replied the Layman. "The very statement 'don't hold it as a principle' has become a principle," said P'u-chi. "You're separated not only by one or two lives," said the Layman. "It's all right for you to reprove a rice-gruel [-eating] monk [like me]," returned P'u-chi. The Layman snapped his fingers three times.10 _ The precise meaning of this exchange will not be tackled here, but P'ang apparently came off on top. Now and then, however, P'ang seems to have been equaled or bested. There is a story of an exchange he had with one of the monks at Ma-tsu's monastery, named Shih-lin. _ One day Shih-lin said to the Layman: "I have a question I'd like to ask. Don't spare your words." "Please go on," said the Layman. "How you do spare words!" exclaimed Shih-lin. "Unwittingly by this discussion we've fallen into a snare [of words]," said the Layman. Shih-lin covered his ears. "You adept, you adept!" cried the Layman.11 _