DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, I should like to ask your permission to put to the witness a small newspaper notice from the newspaper “The People” of 3 March 1946. This is an English newspaper. Regarding the defendants before the IMT, the following was stated: “The opinion of some people is that they should be condemned very soon.” Then it says: “Others believe that they should be made to expiate their crimes by helping to cure cancer, leprosy, and tuberculosis as experimental subjects.” Is the thought of atonement contained therein? WITNESS DR. IVY: Yes, but it is expressed in a hysterical manner. Q. Yes. I agree with you. Witness, do you believe that if a person does not volunteer for an experiment, the state can order such atonement? A. No. Q. Do you not believe that you can expect something of a prisoner that goes beyond his actual sentence if at the same time people outside prison are subject to such burdens? A. No. Those ideas were given up many years ago in the science and study of penology. The primary objective of penology today is reformative, not punitive, not expiative. Q. Witness, is that the recognized theory of penology throughout the whole world today? A. It may not be the recognized theory throughout the whole world today, but it is the prevailing theory in the United States. There is one other aspect that is quite large and essential, and that is the protective aspect of imprisonment to protect society from a habitual criminal. Q. Witness, if a soldier at the front is exposed to an epidemic and can be almost certain that he will catch typhus and deserts and hides behind the protecting walls of a prison, would you not consider it justifiable if he is persuaded to volunteer for an experiment that concerns itself with typhus? A. Will you read the question again? Q. If a soldier deserts from the front where typhus is raging for fear that he too will contract typhus and prefers to be imprisoned in order thus to save himself, do you think it is right for him to be persuaded while he is serving his sentence to subject himself to a typhus experiment? A. As a volunteer? Yes. Q. I see. And would you not take a step further, if this prisoner says, “No, I refuse, because if I do this there wouldn’t have been any point in my deserting; I deserted in order to save myself. My buddies may die but I would just prefer not to.” A. The answer to that question is no. Q. Don’t you admit that one can hold a different view in this matter? A. Yes, but I don’t believe it could be justified. * * * * * H. Usefulness of the Experiments a. Introduction