which was to get the office of Minister of Justice and then to change the Ministry and make it into a National Socialist Ministry. That struggle can only be understood if one knew who Frank was. Frank was the legal adviser and in difficult times the defense counsel of Hitler, and, therefore, he was particularly close to him. Before 1933 even, he had been the leader and propagandist of National Socialist legal ideas. If one bears that in mind, then one sees already on the one hand, the Ministry with its expert officials, the official activities; on the other hand, the combination of National Socialist ideas on law with the aim of overrunning the Ministry. Frank recognized Guertner’s qualities; therefore, he tried by the tactics of continuously wearing him down, to achieve his aim. If one knows National Socialist methods, one knows how stubborn and tenacious such a battle was in the methods with which it was waged, and that struggle had reached its climax when Guertner died, and I took over the conduct of affairs. Q. What was the situation at that time? A. One gets a true idea of that situation if one forms a picture in one’s mind of those three groups or parties which were fighting against the administration of justice with the aim of conquering the administration of justice in order to destroy it. I call these fighting groups by the names of their leaders, Himmler, Bormann, Goebbels; and, in so doing I would like to emphasize that during the whole time I only talked once to each of those three men.