Dr. OLIVIER. Much less than the Mannlicher-Carcano. Mr. SPECTER. In the normal course of the work that you perform for the U.S. Army at Edgewood Arsenal, do you have occasion to simulate substances for testing purposes on determining the path of a bullet through the human body? Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; we do use animal tissues or gelatin as simulants for tissues of the human body. Mr. SPECTER. Has the autopsy report on President John F. Kennedy been made available to you for your review? Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it has. Mr. SPECTER. And subsequent to your review of that report, did you make an effort to simulate the body tissue through which the bullet is reported to have passed through the President in accordance with the report of the autopsy surgeon; entering on the rear of his neck, 14 cm. below the mastoid process and 14 cm. to the left of the right acromion process, passing through a fascia channel, striking the trachea and exiting through the lower anterior of the neck? Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did. Mr. SPECTER. What substance did you prepare to simulate that portion of the President's body? Dr. OLIVIER. We determined the distance on various people by locating this anatomical region and using people of various sizes we found that regardless of general body build, the distance penetrated was around 13-1/2 to 14-1/2 cm. As a consequence, I used gelatin blocks 20 percent gelatin cut at 13-1/2 cm. lengths and also used horsemeat and goatmeat placed in a box so that--this was a little harder to get the exact length but that varied between 13-1/2 and 14-1/2 cm. of muscle tissue. Mr. SPECTER. Did that simulate, then, the portion of the President's body through which the bullet is reported to have passed, as closely as you could for your testing purposes? Dr. OLIVIER. As closely as we could for these test purposes; yes. Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 847 and ask you to testify as to what that depicts? Dr. OLIVIER. This is a box containing--I couldn't say looking at it whether it is the horsemeat or the goatmeat but one of the two. The distance traveled through that meat would be 13-1/2 to 14-1/2 centimeters. It is also covered with clothing and clipped goatskin on the entrance and exit sides, and behind that are the screens for measuring the exit velocity. We had already determined the striking velocity by firing I believe it was--I have it right here if you want---- Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed to that, describe the type of screens which are shown in the picture which were used to measure exit velocity, if you please?