Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly the procedures for simulating the human skull? Dr. OLIVIER. Human skulls, we take these human skulls and they are imbedded and filled with 20 percent gelatin. As I mentioned before, 20 percent gelatin is a pretty good simulant for body tissues. They are in the moisture content. When I say 20 percent, it is 20 percent weight of the dry gelatin, 80 percent moisture. The skull, the cranial cavity, is filled with this and the surface is coated with a gelatin and then it is trimmed down to approximate the thickness of the tissues overlying the skull, the soft tissues of the head. Mr. SPECTER. And at what distance were these tests performed? Dr. OLIVIER. These tests were performed at a distance of 90 yards. Mr. SPECTER. And what gun was used? Dr. OLIVIER. It was a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked Commission Exhibit 139. Mr. SPECTER. What bullets were used? Dr. OLIVIER. It was the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition lot 6,000. Mr. SPECTER. What did that examination or test, rather, disclose? Dr. OLIVIER. It disclosed that the type of head wounds that the President received could be done by this type of bullet. This surprised me very much, because this type of a stable bullet I didn't think would cause a massive head wound, I thought it would go through making a small entrance and exit, but the bones of the skull are enough to deform the end of this bullet causing it to expend a lot of energy and blowing out the side of the skull or blowing out fragments of the skull. Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked Commission Exhibit 857 and ask if you have ever seen those fragments before. Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have. Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you viewed those before, please? Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity. Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you two fragments designated as Commission Exhibits 567 and 579 heretofore identified as having been found on the front seat of the President's car on November 22, 1963, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to examine those before. Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have. Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to compare those to the two fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 857? Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have. Mr. SPECTER. And what did that comparison show? Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar. These two fragments on, what is the number? Mr. SPECTER. 857. Dr. OLIVIER. On 857 there isn't as much of the front part in this one, but in other respects they are very similar.