Representative FORD. That is all. The CHAIRMAN. Director, thank you very much, sir, for coming and being with us and we appreciate the help your department has given to us. (Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) _Thursday, June 4, 1964_ TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. KELLEY, LEO J. GAUTHIER, LYNDAL L. SHANEYFELT, AND ROBERT A. FRAZIER The President's Commission met at 2:10 p.m., on June 4, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren. Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, and John J. McCloy, members. Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas; and Charles Murray, observer. TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. KELLEY (Members present at this point: The Chairman, Representative Ford, Mr. Dulles, and Mr. McCloy.) Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, we have witnesses today who are Thomas J. Kelley of the Secret Service; Leo J. Gauthier, Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, and Robert A. Frazier of the FBI. They are going to testify concerning certain onsite tests made in Dallas at the scene of the assassination, and of preliminary studies which were made prior to the onsite tests at Dallas. May we have them sworn in as a group? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Will you rise and raise your right hands, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. KELLEY. I do. Mr. GAUTHIER. I do. Mr. SHANEYFELT. I do. Mr. FRAZIER. I do. The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, gentlemen. Mr. Kelley, will you take the witness chair, please? Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? Mr. KELLEY. Thomas J. Kelley. Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed? Mr. KELLEY. I am employed by the U.S. Secret Service. Mr. SPECTER. In what capacity? Mr. KELLEY. I am an inspector. Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, of what do your duties consist, Mr. Kelley? Mr. KELLEY. As an inspector, I am part of the chief's headquarters staff. I conduct office inspections of our field and protective installations, and report on their actions to the chief. Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service? Mr. KELLEY. Twenty-two years. Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in the planning of the onsite tests at Dallas, Tex.? Mr. KELLEY. I did. Mr. SPECTER. And did you participate in the making of those tests? Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. On what date was the onsite testing made? Mr. KELLEY. It was a week ago Sunday. Mr. SPECTER. That would be May 24, 1964? Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. What car was used for testing purposes?