Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 20 by 24 inches. The difference in these cameras--they are commonly known as modification cameras. As I said previously, you could take a line of type and twist it or curve it or stretch it out of proportion. As they are different compared with ordinary cameras that are used in most places throughout the country in that they do not have any scales on them. Ordinarily you measure a piece of copy and you set the cameras on a certain number, and for example, the same size--if you wanted to make the same size shot, you would set your copy board on No. 1, and you would set your film carrier on No. 1, put your film in and make your exposure, and you get a same size shot, but our cameras have no scales and you have to find visually and manually your sizes, everything is flexible on the camera. The boards move---- Mr. JENNER. What boards? Mr. GRAEF. The copy boards can twist. The film carrier can twist. Mr. JENNER. When you say "twist" do you mean twist the image? Mr. GRAEF. On its axis--actually twist on its axis. Mr. JENNER. You mean "twist" as distinguished from "turn"? Mr. GRAEF. Well, let me say "turn"--then. Can turn on its axis. The lens camera can be shifted up or down or to the right or left. There are various devices that are supplied with the camera, consisting of prisms through which you can make distortions, various other forms which can be used to make various complicated bends and waves in type or illustrations, or what have you. Mr. JENNER. Now, the bends or waves--when you say bends or waves in type, you mean you do not bend or twist the copy itself--that is, the thing to be photographed, but by use of prisms and other distortion devices, the image implanted on the film is a twist or distortion of the copy or photograph? Mr. GRAEF. Yes; except we do both. Mr. JENNER. You do straight photographing as well as distortion photography? Mr. GRAEF. Well, many times, we will take the actual copy and twist it. Anything goes to get the final results, whatever has to be done, for example if we want to make a curved shot of a label, a flat two-dimensional label, a printed label, and we wanted to curve that label, we might take an empty tin can and paste that on the tin can and tip the tin can so that the lens looking at it would pickup the curve. We would tilt the can to such a degree that the lens in its position would pickup this curve of the label, and, of course, we would make an exposure, so anything goes in camera modification. You start with the fundamentals of learning film and paper; the characteristics of them--we have many grades of paper, many contrasts of paper; we have several different varieties of film; the time developing these various papers--all of these have to be learned by an applicant before he can go on to beginning the camera, so it is a progression of a trade that takes time. Mr. JENNER. Does this include color work? Mr. GRAEF. No; all black and white.