Mr. SORRELS. Possibly so. It is my understanding that at that time they were not actually making any record of calls--they were coming in so fast, the employees of the telephone company told me those calls--they put people through and were not concerned about time. Mr. HUBERT. Was this done by direct dialing or through the operator? Mr. SORRELS. Through the operator. Mr. HUBERT. And it was a collect call? Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Mr. HUBERT. It would have to be charged to the government? Mr. SORRELS. If it was recorded; yes, it would be, to that particular phone. Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would be so kind as to undertake to ascertain for us if there exists a record on that point, because, as you know, we are interested in very narrow areas of time here. Mr. SORRELS. I would say this--that the time can be established within a matter of a very few minutes, because Oswald was still on the floor and had not been removed to the hospital at the time. Mr. HUBERT. That is right. But you see, I have estimates of time from other people, and I want to see how it conforms. And therefore, to tie it in, could you give us your estimate of how many minutes or parts of minutes elapsed between the time you made your call, you initiated it, and the time that Oswald actually moved out? Mr. SORRELS. That I cannot tell you, because I was not there when he was moved out. I left then that area as soon as I made that call. Mr. HUBERT. He was still in the area when you made the call? Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. The call went through very quickly. And I left that area then and went back to Captain Fritz’ office, because I was interested in talking to the man who had shot Oswald as quickly as possible. Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you went down there to the jail office and saw Oswald, as you testified, and made the call, was Jack Ruby there? Mr. SORRELS. I did not see him. Mr. HUBERT. You did not? Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge, he had already been removed? Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes, sir. Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did you get up to Fritz’ office? Mr. SORRELS. I went back up the elevator, the regular public elevator, and went to his office and inquired of Captain Fritz, and I was informed that he was not there, that he had gone to the hospital. I then asked him where was Jack Rubin. Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you had been informed at that time that the last name of Jack Ruby was Rubin, R-u-b-i-n? Mr. SORRELS. I still--as far as I knew, it was R-u-b-i-n, because that is the way I gave it. I asked him where he was, and they said he was on the fifth floor. And I said I would like to talk to him. And---- Mr. HUBERT. Who did you say that to? Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall who it was--some of the detectives down there. Mr. HUBERT. In Fritz’ office? Mr. SORRELS. In Captain Fritz’ office; yes. And Officer Dean was instructed to take me up to where he was. Mr. HUBERT. Who instructed Dean to do that?