"It was a Church inchoate," answered the priest, "beginning, not perfect." But Goode continued to insist that the true Church is known only to God, and therefore invisible. "There are many wolves within," he said, "and many sheep without." "I know not who is elect," retorted Campion, "but I know who is a Catholic." "Only the elect are of the Church," said Goode. "I say that both good and evil are of the visible Church," answered the other. "To be elect or true members of Christ is one thing," went on Goode, "and to be in the visible Church is another." * * * * As the talk went on, Anthony began to see where the confusion lay. The Protestants were anxious to prove that membership in a visible body did not ensure salvation but then the Catholics never claimed that it did; the question was: Did or did not Christ intend there to be a visible Church, membership in which should be the normal though not the infallible means of salvation? They presently got on to the _a priori_ point as to whether a visible Church would seem to be a necessity. "There is a perpetual commandment," said the priest, "in Matthew eighteen--'Tell the Church'; but that cannot be unless the Church is visible; _ergo_, the visibility of the Church is continual." "When there is an established Church," said Goode, "this remedy is to be sought for. But this cannot be always had." "The disease is continual," answered Campion; "_ergo_ the remedy must be continual." Then he left the _a priori_ ground and entered theirs. "To whom should I have gone," he cried, "before Luther's time? What prelates should I have made my complaint unto in those days? Where was your Church nine hundred years ago? Whose were John Huss, Jerome of Prague, the Waldenses? Were they yours?" Then he turned scornfully to Fulke, "Help him, Master Doctor." And Fulke repeated Goode's assertion, that valuable as the remedy is, it cannot always be had. Anthony sat back, puzzled. Both sides seemed right. Persecution must often hinder the full privileges of Church membership and the exercise of discipline. Yet the question was, What was Christ's intention? Was it that the Church should be visible? It seemed that even the ministers allowed that, now. And if so, why then the Catholic's claim that Christ's intention had never been wholly frustrated, but that a visible unity was to be found amongst themselves--surely this was easier to believe than the Protestant theory that the Church which had been visible for fifteen centuries was not really the Church at all; but that the true Church had been invisible--in spite of Christ's intention--during all that period, and was now to be found only in small separated bodies scattered here and there. How of the prevailing of the gates of hell, if that were allowed to be true? * * * *