Mr. VELDE. Yet they were district committee members of the Communist Party in the State of Washington. Mr. O’CONNELL. That I do not know. Mr. VELDE. It was fairly well known among politicians at least that they were; is that not true? Mr. O’CONNELL. No, I don’t think so because--of course, I was completely dependent upon information from Democratic Party leaders out there who had been active in the Democratic Party for a long time. For instance, Rabbitt and Pennock were on various committees all through the Democratic Party and were actually, of course, members of the legislature, 1 in the senate and 1 in the house. Mr. TAVENNER. Were they working with the Progressive Party after that? Mr. O’CONNELL. Yes, but, my position as far as Rabbitt and Pennock--today it is easy to go back 5 and 6 years and the developments that have gone on and the exposures that have been made and so on, have been much greater in the past than they were then. It was not my job to determine whether Rabbitt or Pennock was a Communist. Mr. VELDE. We acknowledge that, of course. Mr. O’CONNELL. As far as the Democratic Party was concerned, we had certain platforms, certain programs. Mr. VELDE. But it is difficult for me to believe in your associations, the various associations you had with them, that you did not know that they were members of the Communist Party. I want to say that with all respect to you as a former Member of Congress. Mr. O’CONNELL. I didn’t like Rabbitt; I had very little to do with Rabbitt. I fired him as a Progressive Party staff man in about May of 1948. My first connection with him, where I was close to what he was like and what he did and so on, all that was from about the latter part of March 1948 down until May and in May of 1948 I removed him from the staff of the Progressive Party. I didn’t really like him. Now, up until Bill Pennock, actually I had talked with Bill Pennock many times and he was much more, I would say, a real Democrat. He was in the Democratic Party conclaves; in their meetings and so on, and, of course, a much more personable fellow and all that, but until Bill Pennock actually announced, and regardless of this testimony that is there, and I talked with Bill Pennock after this testimony was given, and he vociferously denied that he issued statements in the papers and in the press and everything and pension union statements were made, up to the minute Bill Pennock made an open statement just before he was going on trial in the Smith Act cases in 1953 or 1954, whenever they were out there, I certainly had some real, real doubt whether Bill Pennock was a member of the Communist Party. And I think you will find that pretty generally out there, if you went out and talked to ordinary people out there, who were working in the Democratic Party, chairmen and State committeemen and so on, and all of that kind. Mr. VELDE. Well, it is entirely possible.