Mr. O’CONNELL. For instance, Governor Wallgren, who had been in the Congress for 10 years, and had been United States Senator for about 6 years, Governor Wallgren appointed Pennock to a position as assistant superintendent of institutions out there. Mr. TAVENNER. However, that wasn’t after 1948. Mr. O’CONNELL. No, that was in 1945. Mr. VELDE. At that time, how would you determine in your own mind whether or not a person was a member of the Communist Party? What standards would you use? I am talking about the Wallace campaign. Mr. O’CONNELL. About which campaign? Mr. VELDE. The Progressive campaign with Wallace. What standards would you use to determine whether or not a man was a Communist? Mr. O’CONNELL. Taking Rabbitt specifically, the reason I removed him as a member of the staff in the Progressive Party in 1948, in 1948 the Progressive Party was under attack, particularly nationally, as being Communist controlled and Communist dominated and being a Red party and so on, and we had, particularly in South King County, an organizer by the name of Belden who was a member of various veterans’ groups out there. Belden was organizing Progressive Party clubs---- Mr. VELDE. With all due respect, I think you could tell what standards you would use. Mr. O’CONNELL. When Belden was asked by people whether or not this was a Red party, Belden, of course, would deny it and go on and say the kind of people who were in it. Rabbitt was critical of the way that he said that it was not a Red party and the inference which he left which was in effect a denunciation of the Reds and all of that and, of course, I figured if he is touchy about that on the subject and all that, why, there is probably some basis for it, for the charges that have been made against him. Mr. VELDE. You have not answered the question at all, in my opinion. Let me ask you this: You were familiar with the fact that the Soviet Union had established an espionage network here in the United States by 1948, were you not? Mr. O’CONNELL. No; I was not. I don’t know whether that is true even today. I mean, you asked me and I don’t know. I would have to be shown and somebody would have to show me where they are and the proof. I don’t know whether that is true. Mr. VELDE. Are you familiar with the various Smith Act trials? Mr. O’CONNELL. I have read a lot about the Smith Act trials; yes, sir. But in none of the Smith Act trials they were not charged with espionage and treason or anything of that kind. Mr. VELDE. No; of course they were charged with advocating the overthrow of our form of government by force and violence. Mr. O’CONNELL. It even goes back further than that, conspiring to teach and all that, but in none of those trials I don’t know any development of espionage or spying. Of course, I am not familiar with all the testimony. I have not read it all. Mr. VELDE. Are you familiar with the Rosenberg case? Mr. O’CONNELL. I am familiar with the Rosenberg case.