Mr. VELDE. Certainly from the result of that you must have had the suspicion that there was an espionage network operating in this country. Mr. O’CONNELL. Even today I am not convinced that the Rosenbergs were involved in Soviet espionage. Right now I think there is serious doubt of it. Mr. VELDE. Even though they were convicted under our American system of jurisprudence? Mr. O’CONNELL. Even though they were convicted and executed I still feel it. You see, Congressman, I have a genuine interest in civil liberty. It is not a Communist interest in civil liberty. I have studied the testimony in the case of the Rosenbergs and so on. I think it is seriously lacking, at least in my mind, and from my very meager experience as an attorney, it is seriously lacking in fundamental proof of their guilt. I think Dr. Harold Urey, many scientists and so on, feel the same way about it. Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. O’Connell, I note when speaking of Pennock and Rabbitt that a great part of your answers has dealt with the period when you were secretary for the Democratic Party. But it was after the Canwell hearings that the Progressive Party was established. It was in the spring of 1947. So at the time that Pennock and Rabbitt were associated with the Progressive Party this information had already come out in the Canwell hearings? Mr. O’CONNELL. Yes. Mr. TAVENNER. And you have spoken of what happened before the Canwell hearings. Mr. O’CONNELL. That doesn’t prove to me, I mean knowing many of the people that testified--for instance, Jim Sullivan, I know Jim Sullivan’s attitude and motives. I know precisely that he was president of the Washington Pension Union and he lost his job and Pennock got it. I could go through with those, I could go through each one and show the particular reason why they testified. I judge by what Budenz said about me--Budenz knew I wasn’t a member of the Communist Party. He didn’t dare testify that I was. Mr. VELDE. Will you tell us---- Mr. O’CONNELL. Will you let me finish, Congressman. Mr. VELDE. You did not answer my question a while ago as to how you would judge whether or not a person was a member of the Communist Party? Mr. O’CONNELL. I really haven’t thought about it. I can’t give you precise standards and tests. I, for instance, don’t think, I mean the standards and tests set down in the Communist Control Act of 1954 are good; I think they would embrace a lot of people who are non-Communists. I think it would involve a lot of people who are not members of the Communist Party if you were to take those tests, for instance. I think it is entirely too broad. Mr. TAVENNER. The sum and substance of your testimony is that the eight witnesses whose testimony I have quoted here are not worthy of belief and therefore, you just ignored their testimony when the matter came up of associating Rabbitt and Pennock with you in the Progressive Party work?