‘Fifthly.--Will you give me the most favoured nation treaty in all respects, which would amount to England enjoying the same benefits as now without any of the responsibilities or worries she now has, and what would South Africa reply to such a proposal? ‘They would be only too glad to obtain their independence and freedom while remaining at peace with and the friend of England, and they would accept with joy?’ ‘But should England refuse to give the whole of South Africa their freedom on these or any other terms, what would then happen? Do you think that you would deliberately fight for it?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Do you mean to say that the whole of, or any part of, South Africa would rise up against England and demand that she should vacate South Africa or--fight?’ ‘No, these things do not happen in that way, as a rule. It will simply happen that one of these days, in the course of the petty persecutions against the two Dutch representatives, which is always going on to a greater or less extent, that the Republicans will put their foot down and refuse to accede to some unjust demand made on them by some Jingoistic British minister, the consequence of which would be a war, the end of which would be a united South African Republic, with or without foreign aid. Either that would happen, or--the utter extinction of the Boers.’ ‘Do you think the last is at all likely to happen?’ ‘If it is God’s will, _then_ it will, otherwise not?’ ‘Quite true! but from a worldly point of view, what are the probabilities of the South Africans winning their independence?’ ‘A Joshua will arise, who will unite the different races and peoples by a common sympathy. He will cause the two contending parties or races to trust him--he will form a link uniting the two together. Once united with a common desire of Freedom and Independence, and a leader worthy to be trusted by all, the battle will be more than half won. With the people of South Africa once united, they can resist any army that England may send against them. England’s power lies in her navy. The South Africans won’t go to seek her on the sea to fight her. They will simply wait for any and every army sent against them on land, and by various means, which comes to those fighting for liberty, will demolish those armies. They will simply keep out of the way of the ironclads when necessary, and keep on holding the land for years if need be, until out of sheer weariness England shall grant them peace. This is should they have no further aid than their own people. But should one or more European or American powers take up their cause, the end will be sooner and more easily obtained.’ ‘Would you or your Government then call in European aid?’ ‘I could not say what might or might not happen, but I do not think it improbable that aid might come unasked, and should we find ourselves hard pressed, we might find ourselves simply forced to accept foreign aid.’