Notes and Queries, Number 232, April 8, 1854: A Medium of Inter-communication for Literary Men, Artists, Antiquaries, Genealogists, etc. — John Shaqi
Notes and Queries, Number 232, April 8, 1854: A Medium of Inter-communication for Literary Men, Artists, Antiquaries, Genealogists, etc.Various
History
Notes and Queries, Number 232, April 8, 1854: A Medium of Inter-communication for Literary Men, Artists, Antiquaries, Genealogists, etc.
Various
Questions and answers -- Periodicals
In corroboration of my former suggestion, that Nicholas Thosmound of
Somersetshire was an O'Brien of Thomond, I beg to add some farther facts.
Cotemporary with him was William Toutmound, who obtained in the sixth year
of Henry IV. a grant of the office (in England) of chief carpenter of the
king for his life. This singular office, "Capitalis Carpentarius Regis,"
must, I suppose, be called Lord High Carpenter of England, in analogy with
the offices of steward, butler, &c. It is mentioned in the _Calendar of
Patent Rolls of England_ at the 6 Henry IV.; and in the same repository is
mention of a grant long before by Henry III. of the land of Tosmond in
Ireland, to A. R. Tosmond (R standing, I presume, for "Regi," for the Irish
Toparchs were then thus designated by the English government). In this case
then we have the letter _s_ used for _t_, as in the _Inq. P. M._ of Alicia,
wife of the before-mentioned Nicholas Thosmound. In the _Abbreviatio
Rotulorum Originalium of England_, in 15 Edw. II., is the expression
"Regalitatem de Totamon," applied to the district of Thomond in Ireland. It
seems not unlikely that the two cotemporary individuals mentioned above
were sons or grandsons of Turloch, or Tirrelagh, O'Brien, sovereign of
Thomond from 1367 to 1370, when he was supplanted by his nephew Brien
O'Brien, ancestor of the Marquis of Thomond. For this Turloch was in some
favour with the government, by whom his distress was sometimes relieved.
Thus it appears from the printed calendar of Irish Chancery Rolls, that a
writ of _liberate_ issued in the 4th Rich. II. for the payment to him of
forty marks; and again, 5 Rich. II., of twenty marks, "ei concord. [p=]
recompens. labor." He was much befriended by the Earl of Desmond, whose
successor being high in favour with the kings Henry V. and VI., obtained a
large grant of land in the county of Waterford, which he immediately
conferred on the sons of Turloch. Yet some of those sons may, through his
interest, have been established in England. It becomes, therefore, a matter
of considerable interest to ascertain whether the _Inq. P. M._ 2 Henry IV.
contains any proof that Nicholas Thosmound was an O'Brien.
While on this subject, may I inquire the reason why the O'Briens quarter
with their own arms the bearing of three piles meeting in a point? These
latter were the arms of the English baronial family of Bryan, not at all
connected with the Irish family. I suspect the Irish were late in their
assumption of arms, and borrowed in many cases the arms of English families
of nearly similar names.
A. B.
* * * * *
CORONATION STONE.
(Vol. ix., p. 123.)
Possibly the following authorities may tend to throw light upon the
question started by your correspondent.
In _Ant. Univ. Hist._, vol. xvii. p. 287., 4to. ed., London, 1747, it is
said:
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