PROTARCHUS: Yes. SOCRATES: And must we not attribute to pleasure and pain a similar real but illusory character? PROTARCHUS: How do you mean? SOCRATES: I mean to say that a man must be admitted to have real pleasure who is pleased with anything or anyhow; and he may be pleased about things which neither have nor have ever had any real existence, and, more often than not, are never likely to exist. PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that again is undeniable. SOCRATES: And may not the same be said about fear and anger and the like; are they not often false? PROTARCHUS: Quite so. SOCRATES: And can opinions be good or bad except in as far as they are true or false? PROTARCHUS: In no other way. SOCRATES: Nor can pleasures be conceived to be bad except in so far as they are false. PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, that is the very opposite of truth; for no one would call pleasures and pains bad because they are false, but by reason of some other great corruption to which they are liable. SOCRATES: Well, of pleasures which are corrupt and caused by corruption we will hereafter speak, if we care to continue the enquiry; for the present I would rather show by another argument that there are many false pleasures existing or coming into existence in us, because this may assist our final decision. PROTARCHUS: Very true; that is to say, if there are such pleasures. SOCRATES: I think that there are, Protarchus; but this is an opinion which should be well assured, and not rest upon a mere assertion. PROTARCHUS: Very good. SOCRATES: Then now, like wrestlers, let us approach and grasp this new argument. PROTARCHUS: Proceed. SOCRATES: We were maintaining a little while since, that when desires, as they are termed, exist in us, then the body has separate feelings apart from the soul--do you remember? PROTARCHUS: Yes, I remember that you said so. SOCRATES: And the soul was supposed to desire the opposite of the bodily state, while the body was the source of any pleasure or pain which was experienced. PROTARCHUS: True. SOCRATES: Then now you may infer what happens in such cases. PROTARCHUS: What am I to infer? SOCRATES: That in such cases pleasures and pains come simultaneously; and there is a juxtaposition of the opposite sensations which correspond to them, as has been already shown. PROTARCHUS: Clearly. SOCRATES: And there is another point to which we have agreed. PROTARCHUS: What is it? SOCRATES: That pleasure and pain both admit of more and less, and that they are of the class of infinites. PROTARCHUS: Certainly, we said so. SOCRATES: But how can we rightly judge of them? PROTARCHUS: How can we? SOCRATES: Is it our intention to judge of their comparative importance and intensity, measuring pleasure against pain, and pain against pain, and pleasure against pleasure? PROTARCHUS: Yes, such is our intention, and we shall judge of them accordingly.