SOCRATES: Well, take the case of sight. Does not the nearness or distance of magnitudes obscure their true proportions, and make us opine falsely; and do we not find the same illusion happening in the case of pleasures and pains? PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, and in a degree far greater. SOCRATES: Then what we are now saying is the opposite of what we were saying before. PROTARCHUS: What was that? SOCRATES: Then the opinions were true and false, and infected the pleasures and pains with their own falsity. PROTARCHUS: Very true. SOCRATES: But now it is the pleasures which are said to be true and false because they are seen at various distances, and subjected to comparison; the pleasures appear to be greater and more vehement when placed side by side with the pains, and the pains when placed side by side with the pleasures. PROTARCHUS: Certainly, and for the reason which you mention. SOCRATES: And suppose you part off from pleasures and pains the element which makes them appear to be greater or less than they really are: you will acknowledge that this element is illusory, and you will never say that the corresponding excess or defect of pleasure or pain is real or true. PROTARCHUS: Certainly not. SOCRATES: Next let us see whether in another direction we may not find pleasures and pains existing and appearing in living beings, which are still more false than these. PROTARCHUS: What are they, and how shall we find them? SOCRATES: If I am not mistaken, I have often repeated that pains and aches and suffering and uneasiness of all sorts arise out of a corruption of nature caused by concretions, and dissolutions, and repletions, and evacuations, and also by growth and decay? PROTARCHUS: Yes, that has been often said. SOCRATES: And we have also agreed that the restoration of the natural state is pleasure? PROTARCHUS: Right. SOCRATES: But now let us suppose an interval of time at which the body experiences none of these changes. PROTARCHUS: When can that be, Socrates? SOCRATES: Your question, Protarchus, does not help the argument. PROTARCHUS: Why not, Socrates? SOCRATES: Because it does not prevent me from repeating mine. PROTARCHUS: And what was that? SOCRATES: Why, Protarchus, admitting that there is no such interval, I may ask what would be the necessary consequence if there were? PROTARCHUS: You mean, what would happen if the body were not changed either for good or bad? SOCRATES: Yes. PROTARCHUS: Why then, Socrates, I should suppose that there would be neither pleasure nor pain. SOCRATES: Very good; but still, if I am not mistaken, you do assert that we must always be experiencing one of them; that is what the wise tell us; for, say they, all things are ever flowing up and down. PROTARCHUS: Yes, and their words are of no mean authority.