_Q._ Would it not have been to increase the price of oil, if you had increased the cost of freight? _A._ Yes, sir. * * * * * _Q._ You say the railroad companies were going to increase the rate of freight anyhow; they had the right to do that if they were carrying too low, but would that justify them in increasing the rates of freight to such an extent that they could afford to give you a sum of money for it? _A._ I will tell you how that was done. The men in our trade are a very hard kind of men to hold. Those of us who deal in oil know that when we have purchased a lot, they would deliver it in New York for less than anybody could afford to deliver it. That has been the fact almost continuously ever since 1869. Oil has been delivered in the East for less money than was apparent from any rates known to the market; less than even we who refined it could deliver it for. The railroads were kept constantly besieged by one or another, and they were continually cutting under other routes for New York or for Cleveland, so that nobody knew what the rates were. They have been paying rebates, more or less, for the last two years. _Q._ And you contemplated an increase of rates for the simple purpose of having the railroads divide with you? _A._ There was no divide. _Q._ A rebate is a divide to a certain extent, is it not? The proposition was that there should be taken out of the producers and consumers of this country a certain percentage of the freight for you? _A._ It was done to prevent this cutting of roads one under another, and to prevent speculation. _Q._ Was it not done for the purpose of oppressing the producers and consumers of this country? _A._ I can only deny that such was the object, or that such would have been the effect. * * * * * _Q._ Has it been the practice of both the producer and refiner to make combinations from time to time by storing oils, and by large shipments abroad to affect the general price in the market? _A._ The producers have made such combinations on the creek, and a few of the refiners and merchants made two combinations in 1868, which was known as the Deboe combination, and in 1869 and 1870 the Bull Ring, as they called it; but there was no combination that I knew of on the part of the producers, except among themselves; they have several times combined among themselves. _Q._ Have there not been combinations of producers, refiners, and merchants to affect the price of oil? _A._ There have been all kinds of combinations. _Q._ Is there not at this time, if not invalidated by a change of directors of the Erie Railroad Company, a combination between officers of that road and certain parties in New York by which they control the price of coal?