_A._ I really do not know; it was suggested at the time by Mr. Devereux that Mr. Hills, the freight agent of the Lake Shore Railroad, had a son on his death-bed, that he had to leave the office in charge of subordinates, and that he had not his wits about him as usual, because his mind was so pre-occupied with the sickness of his son, who was a favourite son. _Q._ If he had not his wits about him, had he the contracts? _A._ I do not wish to use that expression in any offensive sense; I mean he had not the full use of his mind. I do not know whether he had the contracts or not. I think it is probable from the conversation there that all the freight agents had the rates mentioned in these contracts; I have no doubt that the officers of the roads had consulted him; indeed some of them stated that they had been consulted, and that the freight agents knew what rates were provided for in these contracts. * * * * * _Q._ I want an answer to my question. By your contracts with the railroad companies you were to purchase all the refineries in the main cities of this country. You had it in your power to furnish more transportation than anybody else? _A._ The refineries were not purchased; they have not been purchased. _Q._ Was not that contemplated? _A._ The company contemplated purchasing if it had gone into operation. _Q._ I am getting at the point now; if your scheme had been successful do you suppose anybody in the world could have furnished an equal amount of transportation with your company? _A._ If our plan had been carried out it included everybody; there would have been nobody left, and no hostile interest. _Q._ You would have had the matter perfectly under your control? _A._ Yes, because there would have been nobody left. _Q._ Then I am correct in saying that nobody else could have shipped oil under any circumstances, because you were to have an additional rebate in case any rebate was allowed to any other person? _A._ But if all interest was drawn into the plan, there would have been no hostile party and no injustice done to anybody. _Q._ That is a different matter; now we agree that your advantages of rebate from the leading roads gave you the power of paying larger prices to the oil producers than anybody else? _A._ It was expected that these rebates would enable the refiners and producers to maintain a fair price for crude oil at the wells. _Q._ Will you answer my question? Could you not have purchased oil and shipped it with these rebates, on terms that nobody else could compete with? _A._ If everything had been successful, if the South Improvement Company had gone into successful operation, combining all these various interests, of course we could have paid a higher price than anybody else.