A. Yes, I know Geheimrat Otto. He is probably the best typhus expert not only in Germany but in Europe, who has dealt with typhus all his life. Q. From this excerpt you will see that Geheimrat Otto says, still in 1943: “While the efficacy of lice vaccines has already been tested on a large scale in Poland, Ethiopia, and China, and the vaccine has proved its value, it is still necessary to gather large-scale practical experiences with lung and vitelline membrane vaccines. In animal experiments they have proved of equal value with the former.” Would you say something on that? A. Professor Otto says here that even in the year 1943 the vitelline membrane vaccine and the vaccines from lungs of animals were not sufficiently known. That confirms what I have just testified and that is in answer to Dr. Schreiber’s statement. Q. The witness Bernhard Schmidt, who was interrogated here, stated that human experiments were superfluous for the purpose of testing vaccines and that the value of the individual typhus vaccines could have been ascertained in an epidemiological way. What is your opinion in that connection? A. This is my opinion also. It is my opinion that these tests could have been carried out in an epidemiological manner. I represented that point of view before Grawitz and Himmler from the very beginning. Q. You stated yesterday that to test this matter in an epidemiological way, a large number of persons would have had to be vaccinated and compared with a large number of persons who were not vaccinated. Would such a long experiment have been possible considering the circumstances prevailing during the war? A. Such a test would have been possible. It was actually introduced by me within the framework of the ministry. It is a matter of course, however, that the results can only be collected at a very late date and can only be exploited at a much later date. In the case of the entire experiment we were concerned with bridging over this space of time. Q. In carrying out this examination one could have found that one vaccine has only a very small effectiveness, as was actually found out in the case of the Behring vaccine. In that case would you say that the mortality of persons vaccinated with the inferior vaccine would have been much greater than the entire amount of fatalities as they occurred in Buchenwald? You know that the statement regarding the fatality figures fluctuated between 100 and 120.