WITNESS JAHRREISS: “Since the statute was interpreted this way under the rules imposed by the IMT, it has in a sense of individualism gone beyond regulations of international law and domestic law, this regulation is open to the objection that it will endanger the necessary discipline for the preservation of the state. Such a regulation can be applied in the future only with prudence and circumspection.” I am quoting this here only in order to demonstrate that if any rules exist at all, a certain harshness is absolutely necessary, unavoidably necessary. I always told my young students who started out on a study of law that they would have to devote themselves to perhaps the most bitter fact in life of man, and that is the rule, because by nature man hates the rulership, at least if he is subjected to it, but if this is the case every state basically has to require that its laws are executed, even if the person concerned, for moral or religious reasons, or other reasons, is of a different opinion. On the other hand, Mr. LaFollette, every state knows that there is some limitation somewhere. For example, the German Reich had a military penal law. In it there was the quoted article 47. In the jurisdiction of the Reich court, however, this paragraph was applied more and more in a restricting sense because discipline had to be above all. Now, Mr. Prosecutor, before the IMT, I, in the expert opinion which I gave, which you were kind enough to quote here, stated expressly and emphatically, I believe, what the limit of humaneness or humanity is, but at the same time I pointed out that this limit is frequently not sharply drawn; and I believe, and this comes closer to your question, that perhaps after all the problem with which we are concerned here cannot quite be done justice to, if a case is described quite as drastic as you just said. Last year during the first 4 months of the trial I experienced it, and those were the most difficult times of my entire life. I experienced and saw what terrible things happened under Hitler’s regime, and I have no way to express my horror and to describe this sufficiently in any language, but I believe that you will agree with me if I say that those are occurrences which are outside of legal discussion entirely, for, Mr. Prosecutor, even about injustice one can, if one is exact, speak with legal reasons only in cases where--excuse me--the injustice is within normal limits. I myself was a criminal judge. One single murder frequently, in the court of assize, occupied our time for 2 to 3 weeks, and it was a terrible thing. Two murders by one person--that was horrifying. If someone had eight to ten murders on his conscience, then he was described as a mass murderer in the press of Europe, and people asked themselves whether this was something that could be handled by means of the penal code at all.