A. In view of that situation, what could a Ministry of Justice do which was directed merely by an Under-Secretary as acting Minister who, furthermore, was not a member of the Party and whose words, naturally, did not get the same hearing as those of a Minister; a man who, as the indictment said, never attained cabinet rank? According to an express instruction by Hitler, the chief only was told those things which were necessary for him to fulfill his own task. It is evident that that instruction made possible all kinds of limitations. * * * (Recess) Q. Witness, before the recess we discussed the possibilities at the disposal of these power groups. Please, will you continue. A. I ventured to point out that Hitler had given an explicit order that a chief of any office should only be instructed about that which he had to know in order to carry out his tasks. And that went very far. That situation is better explained by the fact that Minister Guertner, for instance, only found out about the euthanasia decree[169] when in reports on the situation rendered by the presidents of the district courts of appeal, a certain suspicion arose that this decree was carried out, and Guertner categorically demanded an elucidation. Whereas other ministers were authorized to listen to foreign broadcasts, that was prohibited to the Minister of Justice under threat of punishment. When I objected against this, I was told in reply that I should turn to the Ministry of Propaganda which would inform me about everything that happened. I may point out that the opinion of the International Military Tribunal states that on account of the control over broadcasting and the press, and the propaganda machine, an independent judgment based on freedom of thought became an absolute impossibility. I, from my own experience, can only confirm that statement. A significant example is given by the following occurrence--an example showing the extent of that spy system. The Gauleiter of East Prussia had protested against the administration of justice in his district. In order to examine these complaints in 1940 or 1941--I do not know the date precisely any more--I traveled to Koenigsberg and found out that as for the reports by the president of the district court of appeal, the Gauleiter was informed about these reports sooner than I was. Based on warnings received from reliable sources, I had to expect that in the various offices of the municipality which I had to visit, special microphones had been installed for the occasion of my visit, and I could only talk with my personal Referent by driving out to the beach and picking out an isolated beach chair there in order to be able to talk to him without anybody listening to us and spying on us.