So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with him, and he said, "This is"--the name escapes me--he said, "He is a judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can remove this body or not." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?" And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family doesn't have to go through this. We will take care of the matter when we get back to Washington." The poor man looked at me and he said, "I know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said, "All right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton Hill in the rear part of this ambulance. I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout, you get in the middle and I will set on this side," and as we are leaving--Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen. Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Yes, sir"? Mr. KELLERMAN. I did, sir. We went to the airport. In the meantime, Mr. Johnson had been taken to the airplane. They had secured the airport; nobody was there. They had removed seats off the rear part of the plane so we could put the body and the casket in it. As we got to the airport the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and walked it right up to the plane. Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further difficulty of any sort---- Mr. KELLERMAN. No. Mr. SPECTER. Imposed by any Texas officials on the removal of the body? Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. Whatever happened to the hearse, I don't know. I never left the plane. Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe---- Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is 4 minutes after 2. It is about a 10-minute ride to the airplane. Mr. SPECTER. On the question of timing, pinning down these times as best we can, how long did it take you to get from the shooting incident to the time you arrived at Parkland, based on your best estimates? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, it seemed like hours, but we flew there, I honestly don't know. I can't really tell you. Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate of the speed of your vehicle en route from the shooting to the hospital?