Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. As we turned left on Elm Street off Houston, this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view, this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure. Mr. SPECTER. To complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down Elm Street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. First thing that I saw was that the road was going to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were going under. Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what name the Dallas Texans give to that viaduct? Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't. Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard it described since as the triple overpass? Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I haven't. Mr. SPECTER. What was the approximate width of Elm Street in lanes of travel, if you recall? Mr. KELLERMAN. It is at least three lanes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. And describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or in what way you went as you went down Elm Street. Mr. KELLERMAN. As we went down Elm Street, there was a smooth road and the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off area, visibility tremendous. Mr. SPECTER. And describe the composure of the crowds at that time. Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned north on to Houston Street, this was primarily the end of the crowd in Dallas, Tex.; in the downtown section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to Elm Street. As we turned in a northerly direction to Elm Street, which would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. They were spotty, standing on the grassy plot. They were not on the side of the street. In fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all, and we were through it. Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it was when you got to the intersection of Houston and Elm on November 22? Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at Houston and Elm; no. No; I don't. Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade, Mr. Kellerman, as you were proceeding down Main Street at about the time you turned right onto Houston? Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed. Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was the lead car at that time? Mr. KELLERMAN. Again, it was four or five car lengths in front. Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street? Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels. Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time? Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25.