Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be? Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen. Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, how far were you behind the lead car at that point? Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say the same; three to five car lengths, but I can, to go a little further, I can see this car ahead of me. He is not running away from us. Mr. SPECTER. How about the pilot car; was that car in sight? Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that I didn't see; I didn't see it. Mr. SPECTER. Do you know from your personal observation at the time you turned left onto Elm Street how far the President's followup car was behind you at that point? Mr. KELLERMAN. Not from personal observation. Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down Elm Street after turning off of Houston. Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were--there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this. Mr. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction. Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? Mr. KELLERMAN. Beg pardon? Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? Mr. KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with the hands---- Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head. Mr. KELLERMAN. In the collar section. Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into the back seat. Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side. Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here.