Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes. Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm? Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge. Mr. BELIN. You jumped up on the retaining wall? Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 477 for identification.) Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is. Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Will you please tell the Commission what this is? Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Book Store at the corner of Houston and Elm. Mr. BELIN. By the Book Store, you mean the Texas School Book Depository Building? Mr. BRENNAN. Right. Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know what---- Mr. BRENNAN. That is the retainer wall which I perched on. Mr. BELIN. All right. This is the retaining wall on which you perched. I believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in a picture that we took in Dallas pursuant to your showing us where you were November 22; we took that picture on this past Friday. Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct. Mr. BELIN. Which would be the 20th of March. Is that correct? Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct. Mr. BELIN. All right. I hand you now what the reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 478. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 478 for identification.) Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know, what this is. Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it at Houston and Elm. Mr. BELIN. You remember that the photographer was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository when that picture was taken on the 20th of March? Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I do. Mr. BELIN. And the camera is pointed in what direction? Mr. BRENNAN. South. Representative FORD. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22? Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. Representative FORD. At about 12---- Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination. Representative FORD. In both pictures, that is a true---- Mr. BRENNAN. True location. Representative FORD. True location of where you were sitting November 22d? Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, I am going to hand you a negative, which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 479. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 479 for identification.)