Mr. BALL. Did Frazier ever tell you how long the package was? Mr. FRITZ. He just measured, told me about that long. Mr. BALL. Approximately how long? Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at this, the way he measured, probably 26 inches, 27 inches, something like that. Too short for the length of that rifle unless he took it down, I presume he took it down if it was in there, and I am sure it was. Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you--was it the way Frazier showed it to you--was it the size of a rifle that was broken down? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; it would be just about right. Mr. BALL. Later that night you took him down to the showuproom again, didn't you, when you had a press interview? Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I didn't have a press conference. Mr. BALL. You didn't? Mr. FRITZ. No. Mr. BALL. Did you give any instructions to the press conference? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the chief told me he wanted him brought down for a press conference, and I told my officers to take them down and I asked the chief to let me put it on the stage. I was a little bit afraid something might happen to him in front of that stage, someone in the crowd might hurt him but he said no, he wanted him out there in the front, and I told him I would like to put him on the stage so that the officers could jerk him inside the jail office if anything happened but he said no, he wanted him in front, so I told the officers to take him down. I went down later to see how everything was going but I couldn't get in. The crowd had jammed clear back out into the hall. Mr. BALL. Do you know what time you sent him up to the jail? Mr. FRITZ. I have it here, I think--12:05; yes, sir. Mr. BALL. 12:05? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you a question? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY. Where was the--where did you first see the gun that was presumably used in the murder of Tippit? Mr. FRITZ. Of Tippit? Mr. McCLOY. Tippit, yes; .38-caliber pistol. Mr. FRITZ. The officers brought that in, you know, when they brought him in from the arrest at Oak Cliff. Mr. McCLOY. And they had that, you had seen it at about the time you first saw Oswald? Mr. FRITZ. Well, a few minutes later. Mr. McCLOY. A few minutes later? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY. It did show signs from your experience of having been recently fired? Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe you can tell about that too well any more. You know the old style ammunition you could tell if a gun had been fired recently by the residue left in the barrel and smelling the barrel, but with the new ammunition they don't have that. Mr. McCLOY. And this was new ammunition that he was using? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was using new ammunition. Mr. McCLOY. Was the gun fully loaded when it was taken from him? Mr. FRITZ. I didn't see it loaded, of course, it would have been unloaded. I understood it was fully loaded, but I didn't see it. Mr. DULLES. That is he had replaced the bullets that he had used, is that it?