Mr. DULLES. Is it possible that the assassin attempted to fire when the car was behind the tree or going into the tree, that that shot went astray, and that that accounts for, if there was a longer delay between one and two, that would account for it, and then the lethal shots were fired or the wound, the one shot that was fired that hit the two and then the lethal shot was fired immediately after. It is speculation. Mr. McCLOY. I think that must be speculation because there certainly is conflicting evidence as to the intervals between the first and the second shot and the second and the third shot. Mr. DULLES. I think if you will read the testimony you will find it at least 2 to 1 except for the people in the car. Mr. McCLOY. Maybe, but what weight do you give these, I don't know. I think that is quite possible that a bullet was deflected by that tree, but there is no evidence whatever of the bullet landing anywhere in the street or among the crowd. And yet there seems to be no doubt at all that three shots were fired. Mr. DULLES. That seems to be the evidence. Mr. McCLOY. At least three shots were fired, and probably three shots were fired because of the three shells that were found. Mr. DULLES. Three shells? Mr. McCLOY. Yes. Mr. DULLES. We probably won't settle that today. Mr. FRAZIER. I don't know how to answer that question except possibly to go back to the frame numbers of the Zapruder film and you will find they are about equally spaced from frame 161 just before the tree to frame, say, 220, which is just a few frames after the tree, that is 59 or approximately 60 frames, from that point. But from frame 222 to the last shot of frame 313 is 78 and 13, 91 frames, so there is more time between the second and third than the first and second, assuming that the second one actually occurred and that it occurred at about the middle of that interval. Mr. McCLOY. In the middle of that frame, yes. I think that is pretty persuasive. Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite follow that. Mr. McCLOY. There seemed to be more frames between, going backwards, between the third shot, that is between the time that---- Mr. DULLES. The first shot went astray, you don't know whether it was fired. You have no way of getting at that. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. McCLOY. Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. Mr. SPECTER. I want to call Inspector Kelley for observations from the underpass. May the record show that Inspector Thomas Kelley has returned to the witness chair. TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. KELLEY RESUMED Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Before we conclude the testimony, Inspector Kelley, I want to ask you if on May 24 you had occasion to go over to the triple underpass and observe the simulated car and occupants drive down Elm Street from Houston Street? Mr. KELLEY. Yes; I accompanied Mr. Redlich and Mr. Specter from the Commission on the point on the overpass.