Mr. LIEBELER. While you were in attendance at the Lily B. Clayton School, did you know another student by the name of Lee Oswald? Mr. VINSON. I did. Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you first met him? Mr. VINSON. No. Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't you tell us everything that you can in your own words about what you remember about Lee Oswald as you knew him in the second grade? Mr. VINSON. Well, I have no idea when I first saw him or actually became acquainted with him. The best I remember, he was there when I got there, and it was my understanding that he had already been there before I got there. In other words, all the other kids knew him from the previous year. The thing that stands out most in my mind about him is that when we would go outside for unsupervised play, when we weren't engaged in games supervised by the teacher, where we were just turned loose and allowed to do what we wanted to, we would break down into little groups, and I remember the boys called them gangs. We used to say, "Are you in so-and-so's gang", and there were several key people, all boys in the class, who seemed to, I don't know if they were organizers, or just somehow assumed the responsibility of being the leaders. But there were, I couldn't say how many, maybe three or four boys who, you know, acted as leaders of these gangs, as we called them, and I recall fairly vividly that Lee Oswald was one of the leaders of one of these gangs. And we would do, one gang would start chasing the other gang. It was just a bunch of horseplay, horsing around. Mr. LIEBELER. How many kids were involved in this altogether? Mr. VINSON. Well, the boys in our class. Mr. LIEBELER. The boys in your second grade? Mr. VINSON. In our second grade class, and I venture to say there may be 15 or so. Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen? Mr. VINSON. Well, now, you mean in the class? Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Mr. VINSON. I imagine from the way classes generally run, they were--there were probably about 30 students in our room, in our class, and I can't remember whether the boys outnumbered the girls or not, but I would say maybe 15 or 16, or maybe a little less boys. And maybe these so-called gangs would just include two or three people in addition to the leader. This has been so long ago that it is very vague, but I do remember this. And I remember that Oswald was pretty stocky and well built, and it seemed that the other boys used to look up to his--let me start over. They seemed to look up to him because he was so well built and husky and everything and it seemed like all the rest of us were a bunch of little guys, but I remember we would make reference to Lee being big and strong and this sort of thing. And this could be because, from what I judge, he was a little bit older than most of the boys, almost a year. The age makes a little more difference at that period than later on.