And it seemed that this so-called gang that he was head of seemed to be the top one, and all the boys would look up to anybody that was a member of his little group. And they seemed to look up to him and he was considered sort of a tough-guy type, although not as a bully. Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't a bully? Mr. VINSON. Not that I remember. I don't think he was at all because I remember several other boys who were, and I just don't recall that he had any tendencies like that. Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him getting into any fights with anybody? Mr. VINSON. No; none other than just playful fights, just wrestling out on the schoolground. Really not out of anger. Mr. LIEBELER. He never had any occasion to fight with these other boys who you have described as bullies? Mr. VINSON. Not that I recall. Mr. LIEBELER. Were you a member of Oswald's gang? Mr. VINSON. No; I wasn't. Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of any of the fellows who were? Mr. VINSON. No; I don't. Like I say, this was just a playlike sort of thing, you know, and I don't know that. Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about Oswald and these out-of-school activities? Mr. VINSON. I don't remember anything about him out of school. Mr. LIEBELER. I mean out of the classroom? Mr. VINSON. Out of the classroom, no; I don't know. In the classroom, I don't think he was a discipline problem at that time, because the teacher we had was pretty much of a hot-headed lady. Or maybe I shouldn't say that. Maybe not hot headed, but she was a teacher and she had a big paddle and she kept that in the cloakroom, and I remember that certain boys repeatedly got the treatment, and I don't remember Oswald ever having this happen to him. He might have been called down for talking or something. Of course just about everybody is for one time or another, but he seemed very--my recollection of him, he seemed fairly quiet. Just he didn't make a lot of noise. He didn't brag or shoot off his mouth a lot. He just seemed to be a quiet type of kid. Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that his position as gangleader or one of the gangleaders was the result of just his physical size? Mr. VINSON. Yes; I think that had a great deal to do with it. I think he was not tall. I was looking at our class picture, and there were several others that were taller and actually all around bigger than he was, but he was just sort of solidly built, just sort of stocky. And this is something that I don't really remember. I was talking to our teacher later on who, incidentally, said she did not remember him at all. Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name? Mr. VINSON. Mrs. Florine Murphy, and she still teaches the second grade at that school, and she said she had talked to another boy in the class who had remembered him. Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what his name was? Mr. VINSON. Bill Barnes. Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Barnes?