Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you branch manager for AGVA? Mr. PALMER. About a year and a half. Mr. GRIFFIN. When did your employment begin and when did it end? Mr. PALMER. It ended in February of this year and began--when would it be, a year and a half prior to that? Mr. GRIFFIN. Sometime in 1963? Mr. PALMER. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were branch manager of AGVA, did you have occasion to have some dealings with Jack Ruby? Mr. PALMER. Frequently. Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Ruby before you became branch manager? Mr. PALMER. Slightly. Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you happened to know him? Mr. PALMER. Well, he had employed me as a fill-in entertainer on, I believe, about two occasions. Other than that, I had never met him before. Mr. GRIFFIN. In what clubs did you work for him? Mr. PALMER. At the Carousel. Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you were working for him, what was your relationship with him as an employee, how did you find him as an employer? Mr. PALMER. No different than most. Perhaps he felt he was doing a lot for the entertainers, but this is not uncommon. Most entrepreneurs feel they are impresarios or something. Mr. GRIFFIN. When you became branch manager of AGVA, you had occasion, I take it, to deal with him on a number of times? Mr. PALMER. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us, try to reconstruct chronologically how your relationship with him as an AGVA representative proceeded. Mr. PALMER. Well, it was quite amicable in all instances. The single element that certainly perturbed me most, from the standpoint of being a branch manager of AGVA, was that Jack was reluctant and hesitant to meet all of the obligations of a union house as that is, and it was constantly necessary for me to visit him and prod him. With the advent of the McClellan investigation, AGVA became quite sensitive to certain practices that Jack and other clubs freely subscribed to, and in the latter months of our association, I had been collecting data that indicated Jack was continuing to violate certain rules of AGVA that could have been awkward for him. Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the rules that you felt he was violating? Mr. PALMER. Well, AGVA has no jurisdiction over what is called a B-girl or a girl who is primarily in a club to promote consumption of liquor and services. However, they do not want their members, AGVA members to engage in this practice. Jack very frequently made it clear to our members whom he engaged that it was expected of them, and those who were not in great demand found they could stay at his club for a long time if they were to sit down and have a convivial drink with a customer. Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go about collecting this information on it?