"Depends on how you look at it, Cindy--or Mindy." Pete grinned. "I don't know which is who, because I can't see the catsup any more. But if you mean, was it selfish for white people to grab Indian lands, it certainly was. On the other hand, it might have been selfish for a few Indians to think they could stand forever in the path of so many white men. Still depending on how you look at it, and whether you're white or red, it was either 'the march of civilization,' or 'conquest.' Anyhow, the five 'civilized' tribes, the Cherokees, Creeks, Chickasaws, Choctaws, and Seminoles, were told that if they'd give their eastern lands to white men, the territory later to be known as Oklahoma would be theirs forever. In the words of the treaty, they were to have it 'for as long as grass shall grow and waters run.' Moving these tribes took almost twenty years, from 1828 to 1846, and it wasn't a nice thing, because some of the uprooted Indians suffered terribly, but finally they were here." Alec interrupted again. "If the land was given to the Indians, how can we take it?" he asked. "I was coming to that, Alec. The 'civilized' tribes were different. They knew white men. They saw that white men had a better way of living, and so they copied it. They had their farms, their schools, their churches, their stores. They lived much as we do and even owned slaves. Then came the Civil War, and almost all of them lined up with the South. The government claimed that by this 'rebellion,' the tribes had violated their treaty rights. That began it. There were a lot of people west of the Mississippi by that time, and they wanted to know why they weren't allowed to have land that no longer belonged to the Indians anyway." "Be sure to tell about the cattlemen," Cindy murmured. "Sure thing. Great herds of cattle, gathered in Texas for delivery to Kansas railheads, were driven across the territory. At first the cattlemen asked only that their herds be allowed to graze while passing through. Then they wanted grazing land to fatten cattle, and one way or another they got a lot of it. So there was something else to fight about. If homesteaders could have no part of Oklahoma, why were wealthy cattlemen allowed to take so much of it? Then came the 'Boomers.'" Alec smiled. Cindy clasped her hands excitedly. "Somebody," Pete continued, "found out that part of Oklahoma, the section soon to be opened, had been given up by the Creeks and Seminoles at the end of the Civil War and had never been assigned to any other tribe. They became the 'unassigned lands,' and the boom was on. At first it was unimportant, because only a few people trickled in. Then, just about ten years ago, a very great man, Captain David L. Payne, saw the possibilities in Oklahoma and he organized the Boomers. Captain Payne personally led several expeditions of colonists into the unassigned lands. Each time the soldiers forced them to leave." [Illustration] "Is he here now?" Mindy asked.