it is what should be described as that which _in reality and apart from_ all positions with regard to the senses is so and so determined; and this, as such, cannot be an appearance. Again, the qualification of 'is so and so determined' by 'in perception' is merely an attempt to treat as relative to perception, and so as an appearance, what is essentially independent of perception.[35] Kant, no doubt, is thinking of a real presupposition of the process by which we distinguish between the real and the apparent qualities of bodies, i. e. between what they are and what they appear. We presuppose that that quality is really, and not only apparently, a quality of a body, which we and every one, judging from what it looks under various conditions (i. e. 'in universal experience'), must believe it to possess in itself and independently of all perception. His mistake is that in formulating this presupposition he treats as an appearance, and so as relative to perception, just that which is being distinguished from what, as an appearance, is relative to perception. [34] Hence Kant's protest (B. 45, M. 27), against illustrating the ideality of space by the 'inadequate' examples of colour, taste, &c., must be unavailing. For his contention is that, while the assertion that space is not a property of things means that it is not a property of things in themselves, the assertion that colour, for example, is not a property of a rose only means that it is not a property of a thing in itself in an empirical sense, i. e. of an appearance of a special kind. [35] Cf. pp. 72-3.