ATHENIAN: Why, my good friend, how can we possibly suppose that those who knew nothing of all the good and evil of cities could have attained their full development, whether of virtue or of vice? CLEINIAS: I understand your meaning, and you are quite right. ATHENIAN: But, as time advanced and the race multiplied, the world came to be what the world is. CLEINIAS: Very true. ATHENIAN: Doubtless the change was not made all in a moment, but little by little, during a very long period of time. CLEINIAS: A highly probable supposition. ATHENIAN: At first, they would have a natural fear ringing in their ears which would prevent their descending from the heights into the plain. CLEINIAS: Of course. ATHENIAN: The fewness of the survivors at that time would have made them all the more desirous of seeing one another; but then the means of travelling either by land or sea had been almost entirely lost, as I may say, with the loss of the arts, and there was great difficulty in getting at one another; for iron and brass and all metals were jumbled together and had disappeared in the chaos; nor was there any possibility of extracting ore from them; and they had scarcely any means of felling timber. Even if you suppose that some implements might have been preserved in the mountains, they must quickly have worn out and vanished, and there would be no more of them until the art of metallurgy had again revived. CLEINIAS: There could not have been. ATHENIAN: In how many generations would this be attained? CLEINIAS: Clearly, not for many generations. ATHENIAN: During this period, and for some time afterwards, all the arts which require iron and brass and the like would disappear. CLEINIAS: Certainly. ATHENIAN: Faction and war would also have died out in those days, and for many reasons. CLEINIAS: How would that be?